Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[Wildfireschulte]

The way Heritage and Luckey handled this card has lowered both companies from the status of "esteemed auction house" to the same level as the eBay hucksters in my mind. Over and over we've seen the smart people on this board bust some of the big-name auction houses over fraudulent descriptions. Keep it up guys!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What if they told him they had no reason to believe the card was stolen? (I don't know that to be the case, just drawing possible inferences.)

A more realistic inference to be drawn is that they told him what they saw on the back of the card was inconclusive, especially considering they looked at the back of the card not inside an FBI lab with FBI equipment but with whatever they could find at the PSA booth.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

A more realistic inference to be drawn is that they told him what they saw on the back of the card was inconclusive, especially considering they looked at the back of the card not inside an FBI lab with FBI equipment but with whatever they could find at the PSA booth.

If there was inadequate equipment on site to make a proper assessment, and they had some suspicion the card might be stolen (which I assume to be the case since they took it from him), why didn't they (if you know) keep the card for further evaluation rather than returning it to Leon?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If there was inadequate equipment on site to make a proper assessment, and they had some suspicion the card might be stolen (which I assume to be the case since they took it from him), why didn't they (if you know) keep the card for further evaluation rather than returning it to Leon?

You'd have to ask them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I guess how I would come out then would depend a lot on the exact words used when the card was returned.

But without knowing that, if the FBI took a card from me, and then gave it back to me without requiring further evaluation, that would give me some comfort. I'm not sure I would then feel obliged to conduct my own forensic examination, if the FBI itself did not feel one was warranted, or could yield any evidence relevant to the issue.

With hindsight, we can see that more could have been done. But it's hindsight.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess how I would come out then would depend a lot on the exact words used when the card was returned.

But without knowing that, if the FBI took a card from me, and then gave it back to me without requiring further evaluation, that would give me some comfort. I'm not sure I would then feel obliged to conduct my own forensic examination, if the FBI itself did not feel one was warranted, or could yield any evidence relevant to the issue.

With hindsight, we can see that more could have been done. But it's hindsight.

Did you read the transcript?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I did but it was a little hard to follow and also it was before it was returned, right, because Scott was saying he didn't think it would be returned and Leon was saying he thought he would get it back at least for now?

[mr.ginter]

I won't kick a dog when he's down. Even though there are a few items I'd love to own in my collection listed. I'm going to follow John's lead and won't be bidding on any items from Leon's collection. In case this is considered a controversial post and you need my first and last name its Scott Hassel.

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess how I would come out then would depend a lot on the exact words used when the card was returned.

But without knowing that, if the FBI took a card from me, and then gave it back to me without requiring further evaluation, that would give me some comfort. I'm not sure I would then feel obliged to conduct my own forensic examination, if the FBI itself did not feel one was warranted, or could yield any evidence relevant to the issue.

With hindsight, we can see that more could have been done. But it's hindsight.

I can imagine the FBI could have a million reasons to do this. Remember the FBI is not concerned with matters of truth but of law. You can be 100 percent sure something is stolen, but even if you witnessed the theft yourself it doesn't mean there's anything you can do legally without proof that would hold up in a court of law. The truth and the determination of the law are two very different things.

But at the end of the day the FBI's opinion doesn't matter that much to me. This community knows more about baseball cards and their history than any FBI agent. We know the card has an NYPL stamp, we know the NYPL has reported that exact card stolen, of which there are two known copies in the world. There are no records that I know of of the library selling that card (if there were, it would be a different story). The card was altered to remove the stamp (by the way, the fact that it's holdered with a number grade should be enough to take the auction down right this second...) and there's no mention of the library in its supposedly extensive provenance records.

I think this is a pretty open and shut case. If it looks, quacks, then duck, etc.

And honestly for Leon to classify this as a witch hunt I think is ultra-hypocritical. There have been so many auction busting threads in the past, but suddenly when it's one of Leon's items, Leon's response is that the community is out to get him. The very community with all his supporters and the people who consider him to be one of the pillars of the hobby. I mean honestly, give me a break.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by poorlydrawncat

I can imagine the FBI could have a million reasons to do this. Remember the FBI is not concerned with matters of truth but of law. You can be 100 percent sure something is stolen, but even if you witnessed the theft yourself it doesn't mean there's anything you can do legally without proof that would hold up in a court of law. The truth and the determination of the law are two very different things.

But at the end of the day the FBI's opinion doesn't matter that much to me. This community knows more about baseball cards and their history than any FBI agent. We know the card has an NYPL stamp, we know the NYPL has reported that exact card stolen, of which there are two known copies in the world. There are no records that I know of of the library selling that card (if there were, it would be a different story). The card was altered to remove the stamp (by the way, the fact that it's holdered with a number grade should be enough to take the auction down right this second...) and there's no mention of the library in its supposedly extensive provenance records.

I think this is a pretty open and shut case. If it looks, quacks, then duck, etc.

And honestly for Leon to classify this as a witch hunt I think is ultra-hypocritical. There have been so many auction busting threads in the past, but suddenly when it's one of Leon's items, Leon's response is that the community is out to get him. The very community with all his supporters and the people who consider him to be one of the pillars of the hobby. I mean honestly, give me a break.

We have known SINCE YESTERDAY of the NYPL stamp. Show me where "the community" knew this before yesterday.

[danmckee]

WOW! Serious detective work with the scans and pointing out the remnants of the stamp.

I am contacting Heritage to remove my bids on this item.

On a good note... that will free up some coinage to pop something else in this KILLER auction! Oh how I wish I had more to spend

C everyone in CHI-TOWN

Dan