Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I didn't quote your enitre post because we can stop right there. That is where we disagree. To me, soaking a card is not altering it. If you think it is, you need to go look up the word alter in the dictionary. After that, if you still think soaking a card is a form of alteration, then we'll just have to disagree.

Do you remove creases/wrinkles, yes or no?

Do you remove stains with chemical solvents that change the physical composition of the card compared to when first issued, yes or no?

If the answer to either of these questions is yes, IMO you are altering a card. And if the hobby feels it is okay to sell such "altered" cards without disclosure, knowing it will not be detected by TPG, then we can assume the practice will become widespread. The end result will be a substantial increase in the pop reports of higher-graded cards, resulting in a significant price reduction.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Do you remove creases/wrinkles, yes or no?

No. I consider that an alteration.

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Do you remove stains with chemical solvents that change the physical composition of the card compared to when first issued, yes or no?

No. I don't belive I've ever soaked a card in anything other than water. However, I am not opposed to soaking cards in chemicals if they do not change the composition of the card - the look (washed out colors), the feel, the smell, etc. If anything changes the look, feel or smell of the card, then that is an alteration in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So which chemicals, in your opinion, do not change anything about a card?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So which chemicals, in your opinion, do not change anything about a card?

Peter, I don't know enough about checmicals to answer that.

But if there is a chemical(s) that can remove a stain and NEVER be detected, I don't have any problem with it - again as long as it doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

And your analogy above is silly. You can't be responsible 'creating the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur' when you can't control what happens after the sale.

That's like saying wax vendors shouldn't sell wax packs/boxes because somewhere down the road those packs could possibly be opened, searched and resealed.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I don't know enough about checmicals to answer that.

But if there is a chemical(s) that can remove a stain and NEVER be detected, I don't have any problem with it - again as long as it doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

And your analogy above is silly. You can't be responsible 'creating the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur' when you can't control what happens after the sale.

That's like saying wax vendors shouldn't sell wax packs/boxes because somewhere down the road those packs could possibly be opened, searched and resealed.

Lol, How can anything clean it without changing the look? The 58 Aaron card I pictured has no chemical residue would it be ok to sell if graded?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Lol, How can anything clean it without changing the look? The 58 Aaron card I pictured has no chemical residue would it be ok to sell if graded?

When I say clean it w/o changing the look, I am referring to fading the colors, removing original gloss, etc.

As far as the Aaron, I'm not even sure why that is part of the discussion. You sun bleached that, right?

[GregMitch34]

What if you take a card that is a little dark and murky and simply put it in the sun a bit and it lightens and clears in a very pleasing way--is that okay because it's organic?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

When I say clean it w/o changing the look, I am referring to fading the colors, removing original gloss, etc.

As far as the Aaron, I'm not even sure why that is part of the discussion. You sun bleached that, right?

Ok, understand your meaning of changing the looks.

The Aaron is altered and it is undetectable by the grading companies. So it fits the description of what you and Peter are talking about. No it was not faded in the sun.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I don't know enough about checmicals to answer that.

But if there is a chemical(s) that can remove a stain and NEVER be detected, I don't have any problem with it - again as long as it doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

And your analogy above is silly. You can't be responsible 'creating the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur' when you can't control what happens after the sale.

That's like saying wax vendors shouldn't sell wax packs/boxes because somewhere down the road those packs could possibly be opened, searched and resealed.

So David at the end of all this back and forth we pretty much are where we started, with me saying I thought water soaking was OK, and you now saying water soaking is the only thing you know of that is OK. What did we just have a two hour debate for?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So David at the end of all this back and forth we pretty much are where we started, with me saying I thought water soaking was OK, and you now saying water soaking is the only thing you know of that is OK. What did we just have a two hour debate for?

No, Peter, that's not what I'm saying. I don't care if DT uses Raid Bug Spray to remove the stains or any other checmical as long as it has no lasting effects, can't be detected and doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

No, Peter, that's not what I'm saying. I don't care if DT uses Raid Bug Spray to remove the stains or any other checmical as long as it has no lasting effects, can't be detected and doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

David it's a meaningless hypothetical, because other than water (and Steve B disagrees here) you cannot name one chemical that fits that category. So what is the point?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I don't know enough about checmicals to answer that.

But if there is a chemical(s) that can remove a stain and NEVER be detected, I don't have any problem with it - again as long as it doesn't change the look, feel or smell of the card.

And your analogy above is silly. You can't be responsible 'creating the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur' when you can't control what happens after the sale.

That's like saying wax vendors shouldn't sell wax packs/boxes because somewhere down the road those packs could possibly be opened, searched and resealed.

I don't buy that analogy at all. By your logic I could without any ethical issue sell a gun to Jesse Holmes or Adam Lanza strongly suspecting what his plans were, because I have no control over it. Or maybe you believe that I could?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't buy that analogy at all. By your logic I could without any ethical issue sell a gun to Jesse Holmes or Adam Lanza strongly suspecting what his plans were, because I have no control over it. Or maybe you believe that I could?

I'm talking about selling something in 'good faith'. Huge difference.

[barrysloate]

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade. And this in turn makes them lots of money. Which leads me to what I always say about TPG's- that they mint money. It's like having a printing press and making hundred dollar bills with it. TPG's have too much power, period.

Second, it is in the interests of all businesses to have satisfied customers. And one way to do that is to make sure customers are happy with the grades they are getting. As a result, there is a distressing number of high grade cards in holders that have been altered, cleaned, or processed in some way. This is a very bad sign for the future of the hobby.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade. And this in turn makes them lots of money. Which leads me to what I always say about TPG's- that they mint money. It's like having a printing press and making hundred dollar bills with it. TPG's have too much power, period.

Second, it is in the interests of all businesses to have satisfied customers. And one way to do that is to make sure customers are happy with the grades they are getting. As a result, there is a distressing number of high grade cards in holders that have been altered, cleaned, or processed in some way. This is a very bad sign for the future of the hobby.

+1, agree with Barry. I have always been confused about "soaking cards". Doesnt that compromise the structure of the card? To me, it would take huge balls to do this in the first place...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1, agree with Barry. I have always been confused about "soaking cards". Doesnt that compromise the structure of the card? To me, it would take huge balls to do this in the first place...

I will defer to Steve B. here, but certainly I had thought there was close to a consensus that just soaking in water doesn't compromise the card in any meaningful way.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade.

That's silly! There have been gum and wax removing solutions long before TPGs even came into existence. What was the motivation before the TPGs?

TPGs could all go out of business tomorrow and I highly doubt Dick's business would skip a beat.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would bet if Dick supplied his client list it would confirm what Barry said.

And if there were no TPGs the motivation would be the same -- to get more money for altered cards.

[barrysloate]

Gum and wax removal is minimal David. I'm talking about any process that will add grading points to a card. That's a whole different thing. There are people who build corners, who glue the fronts and backs of two different cards together and then submit them and get high numerical grades. Some of these alterations are caught by the graders, but many of them are missed too. That would concern me greatly if I were buying expensive high grade cards ( I don't).

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: 99+ % of the people who use the services of someone like Mr. Towle do so for one reason and one reason only- to resubmit the card to TPG in order to get a higher than merited grade. And this in turn makes them lots of money. Which leads me to what I always say about TPG's- that they mint money. It's like having a printing press and making hundred dollar bills with it. TPG's have too much power, period.

Second, it is in the interests of all businesses to have satisfied customers. And one way to do that is to make sure customers are happy with the grades they are getting. As a result, there is a distressing number of high grade cards in holders that have been altered, cleaned, or processed in some way. This is a very bad sign for the future of the hobby.

Exactly what Barry said.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

............No. I don't belive I've ever soaked a card in anything other than water. However, I am not opposed to soaking cards in chemicals if they do not change the composition of the card - the look (washed out colors), the feel, the smell, etc. If anything changes the look, feel or smell of the card, then that is an alteration in my opinion.

Putting aside the question whether a chemical that does not change the look, feel or smell is an alteration, it none of those things are taking place, then why on earth is someone willing to pay somebody to apply to apply such a chemical?