The Scoundrel HOF

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Amazingly, I had never heard the story of Marty Bergen before. What a psycho!

Hard to believe he only has one vote so far. Since we're only allowed to nominate three scoundrels, I will do the next best thing.

I second your nomination of Marty Bergen.

What he did makes PED use, throwing games, or betting on baseball seem relatively minor, by comparison.

Best regards,

Eric

Well I am glad I am not alone in believing slaughtering your 3 year old son, 6 year old daughter, and your spouse with an ax is a worse offense than using PEDs or being rude to fans.

[earlywynnfan]

I'm going to rebel here!!! Keeping it to three choices is arbitrary and constricting. Weren't the original HOF voters allowed 5 picks?? I'm adding two more:

Mel Hall -- I hope there's a special place in Hell for pedophiles
The Robison brothers -- syndicate baseball!!

Ken

[Runscott]

I'll go with baseball-related scoundrels. My nominations are based on my extreme dislike for liars - these four epitomize lying and betrayal of their fans, and will always head up my own personal 'scoundrel' hall of fame, regardless of the results of Frank's poll (which is very interesting).

I had to choose four, as they are almost tied (in my mind, at least). There are others whose PED use was certainly as bad, but these were the poster boys in terms of their brazen public denial. Braun is #1 because he sacrificed a man who was simply doing his job. McGwire's pansy-like behavior in court deserves special mention - apparently when the steroids wore off, his balls shrunk. Rodriguez was/is just plain stupid - to me, easily the dumbest of the entire bunch. Barry Bonds doesn't make my list, because he at least spared us the constant stupid public denials. We knew he was lying, he knew we knew. The others tried much harder to fool us.

1. Braun
2. Rodriguez
3. McGwire
4. Clemens

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'll go with baseball-related scoundrels. My nominations are based on my extreme dislike for liars - these four epitomize lying and betrayal of their fans, and will always head up my own personal 'scoundrel' hall of fame, regardless of the results of Frank's poll (which is very interesting).

I had to choose four, as they are almost tied (in my mind, at least). There are others whose PED use was certainly as bad, but these were the poster boys in terms of their brazen public denial. Braun is #1 because he sacrificed a man who was simply doing his job.

Whoa, Braun didn't "sacrifice" anybody. Saying this shows a casual ignorance of the facts in this case, something a lot of people discussing this on the internet are guilty of because they took what ESPN, or Yahoo Sports printed in an article, and accepted it as fact without questioning the veracity of the information being presented (this is not in any way a knock on you personally, Scott). When the story broke, it was that "Braun is fighting a PED suspension." Then it was "Braun is fighting a suspension not for PEDs, but use of a banned substance." Then, it was "Braun took a banned substance to combat a STD." The sports media were in such a frenzy to break the story that they didn't care if there was a shred of truth in what they were printing. Hell, the whole story only broke because somebody decided that Braun's right to a confidential appeals process was less important than ratings for ESPN. What does that tell you about T.J. Quinn et all in the "Outside The Lines" reporting crew? Yahoo Sports wasn't much better. Jeff Passan, the idiot at Yahoo Sports with the hard on for Braun, has printed more BS than anybody I've ever seen. He wrote a story that Braun contacted three players, Matt Kemp, Troy Tulowitzki, and Joey Votto, asking them for public support, because, according to Passan, Braun said Dino Laurenzi Jr, the collector, was an anti-semitic Cubs fan. The very next day, both Tulowitzki and Votto went on record as saying that the conversations never happened, that the story was a complete fabrication. Votto even offered to make his phone records public to prove that there was no conversation. ESPN piggybacked the story, and when I contacted one of the writers at ESPN covering the story (I forget who, I'll have to look), he basically said "we're not responsible, as we're just printing a story done by Yahoo, and the responsibility falls to them. What a joke.

He lied about cheating, absolutely, and why he did it doesn't matter. As soon as he lied, he should have been suspended. Period. I don't know a single Brewers fan, myself included, who was not miffed when Braun lied about what he did. That he took a substance not on the approved list to expedite healing of a calf muscle injury that had been bothering him all year might have been misguided more than anything, but it was still breaking the rules, and lying to cover it up not only made matters worse, but it reflected poorly on the whole organization. But the fact remains that if the collector had done his job properly, there wouldn't be anything more to the story. But he didn't, and nothing Braun said in his press conference was either untrue, or below the belt. The handling of his sample was questionable, and it did raise valid concerns in the mind of his defense team. The guy had been collecting samples since testing began in MLB, and as somebody that routinely tested Brewer players at Miller Park, he knew where every Fed Ex location between the stadium and his home was located, including one that was open 24 hours, and just five minutes from the park. The last sample collection that day was made at 4:45 pm, and he left the ballpark a little after 5 pm. Laurenzi Jr could have dropped the samples at the 24 hour Fed Ex, as he was required to do per the joint agreement, and been on his way home. Instead he took Braun's sample, and the sample of three other teammates, to his house, where they remained out in the open for nearly two full days (44 hours). They were not secured. They were not refrigerated. And Braun's name was still affixed to the biological sample. The reason why it is vitally important for the collector to do his job properly is to make sure that the sample is not compromised, that there is no degradation of the sample, and that Braun's name is no longer connected to it. As soon as it is received by Fed Ex, a number is attached to the sample, and only the lab, which I believe is in Montreal, knows who the sample belongs to from that point. That didn't happen. The sample was left in a Tupperware container, on the counter top in his basement office, which he said was "sufficiently cool". When the sample was received by the lab, it was noted as intact. But therein lies the problem. A veteran collector, if he wanted to, would know how to mess with the pack if that was his intent (I know this for a fact because the wife of one of my best friends in college worked for a testing lab, and she is well versed in the protocol involved with drug testing). I'm not saying that happened here, and in fact, I am almost certain that it did not. But the fact that there was any chance it could have been immediately calls into question the integrity of the whole process, and that is why Braun's defense team had him say what he did.

Here's a transcript of the Ryan Braun press conference immediately after his suspension was overturned:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/140333483.html

Here is what Braun said, the thing that everybody has been saying is Braun throwing the collector "under the bus."

"Why he didn’t bring it in, I don’t know. On the day that he did finally bring it in, FedEx opened at 7:30. Why didn’t he bring it in until 1:30? I can’t answer that question. Why was there zero documentation? What could have possibly happened to it during that 44-hour period? There were a lot of things that we learned about the collector, about the collection process, about the way that the entire thing worked that made us very concerned and very suspicious about what could have actually happened.

If you gave a urine sample at work, your livelihood, and the collector, instead of dropping it off where he was supposed to, took it home for two days, leaving it out in the open, not documenting what happened to the sample, and then waited 6 hours until after the drop off facility opened to finally take it in on Monday afternoon, would you be suspicious? What possible reason could the collector have for not doing his job as he was trained, and instructed to do? Look at Braun's verbiage in the same statement:

It states in the Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment program that all samples shall be taken immediately to FedEx on the day they’re collected absent unusual circumstances.

Has Dino Laurenzi Jr ever presented the reason why he didn't take the samples to Fed Ex? Was there an emergency?

Here's Laurenzi's statement:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/76...yan-braun-case

"Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3. In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office. The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident.

Well, he said he took it home, as CDT instructed him. Funny, however, that is not what the JDA outlines as proper procedure:

XI. PROCEDURES AFTER COLLECTION

E. If the specimen is not immediately prepared for shipment, the Collector shall
ensure that it is appropriately safeguarded during temporary storage.

1. The Collector must keep the chain of custody intact.

2. The Collector must store the samples in a cool and secure location.


F. When all of the specimens have been collected at the collection site, the
Collector shall take the specimens in the appropriate packaging to a FedEx
Customer Service Center for shipment. The specimens cannot be placed in a FedEx Drop Box location.

That the Fed Ex locations could not ship on a Saturday is irrelevant. There was a Fed Ex location open until 7 pm, 5 miles from Miller Park, at Fed Ex Plaza in downtown Milwaukee on East Wisconsin Avenue, that accepted packages, including secured biological packs from MLB. He had 2 hours to drive 5 miles, and drop the container off at the secured facility as was required by his job. Yet he didn't do what was required.

That is why Braun said what he did in his press conference. And, by the way, that is a big part of why Braun and his team won the appeal of suspension, which had never happened before. And, that is also why MLB revamped the JDA with more stringent guidelines for collectors, in part.

Ryan Braun didn't "throw anybody under the bus." He didn't assail Laurenzi Jr, didn't sabotage his career. In fact, Braun and his fiancee met with Dino Laurenzi Jr and his wife, and had dinner with them. If everything is good between them, perhaps it's time to stop rehashing old memes that have been proven wildly inaccurate.

Please.

By the way, while ESPN and Yahoo Sports were doing everything they could to smear Ryan Braun's reputation (which actually DID happen, unlike the accusations about Braun's throwing Laurenzi Jr under the bus), they casually ignored all the things that Braun does to help the people of Milwaukee. The countless hours that Braun and his fiance (now wife) Larissa Frasier have given to charitable causes...that doesn't jive well with their "Ryan Braun is the devil" agenda.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If you gave a urine sample at work, your livelihood, and the collector, instead of dropping it off where he was supposed to, took it home for two days, leaving it out in the open, not documenting what happened to the sample, and then waited 6 hours until after the drop off facility opened to finally take it in on Monday afternoon, would you be suspicious?

If I had taken the PED - which we now know Braun did - what would I have to be suspicious of?

He tested positive for a drug he was taking. I don't understand how there could be any true "suspicion" for foul play.

I understand trying to get out of the 50 game suspension and using the legal means he did, but this was dishonesty at least.

And saying "....things that we learned about the collector" is impugning his character, not matter how subtly.

[earlywynnfan]

Unfortunately, it looks like one of the best threads in a while is going to swirl the Braun toilet bowl.

Didn't Braun let a good friend--was it Aaron Rodgers?--publicly announce what a great guy and non-cheater Braun was?

[ALR-bishop]

Not sure if Braun asked Rodgers to defend him, but as I recall Rodgers did "bet" his next year salary that Braun was clean via twitter. Have not heard if he paid off after the admission and if so to whom he paid it

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Unfortunately, it looks like one of the best threads in a while is going to swirl the Braun toilet bowl.

Didn't Braun let a good friend--was it Aaron Rodgers?--publicly announce what a great guy and non-cheater Braun was?

I like the sound of your post.

Braun's numbers last year suggest that this may be the only HOF to which he will be nominated.

Vote for him if you choose, but lets not flush the toilet, or at least nicht das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten. ( in deference to Braun's heritage )

Carry on.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by PM770

If I had taken the PED - which we now know Braun did - what would I have to be suspicious of?

He tested positive for a drug he was taking. I don't understand how there could be any true "suspicion" for foul play.

I understand trying to get out of the 50 game suspension and using the legal means he did, but this was dishonesty at least.

And saying "....things that we learned about the collector" is impugning his character, not matter how subtly.

Except, Braun has never said he took a PED. There is an important distinction between using a PED, a performance enhancing drug used to improve performance, and a banned substance used to expedite healing of an injury. I completely realize that's splitting hairs in the eyes of most baseball fans, but it's an important distinction to Brewer fans. Braun did not take something to cheat the game. Braun's performance on the field, his numbers, the awards he's won, were achieved through his natural ability, and his hard work. He's been tested repeatedly since he was drafted by the Brewers in 2005, all the way through the minor leagues, and in the Majors. Remember the initial story about Braun was that he was going to be suspended for PED use, then the story changed, and Braun was being suspended for a banned substance. That substance still has never been named. Braun only referred to them as a lozenge and cream used to help expedite his rehabilitation. Braun wasn't looking to become a better player, but he was looking to become as close as possible to the player he'd always been.

What did he learn about the collector? That he had been doing that same job since the JDA went into effect in 2005, and was familiar with every Fed Ex location close to Miller Park. They learned that Laurenzi Jr did not do his job as outlined by the JDA, a job he'd been doing for six years at that point. Procedures were very clear-barring any unusual circumstances, he was required to take the biological sample pack to Fed Ex the same day it was collected. He did not.

Is it impugning somebody's character if you say something that is factual? I would say that the collector threw himself under the bus. Again, we know that Braun won his appeal on procedural grounds. That doesn't mean they couldn't have won on scientific grounds, the defense team choose the easiest road to a reversal of the suspension, and they accomplished their intended goal.

Now, again, did Braun cheat? The black and white answer is yes, he did. Absolutely. When Major League Baseball says you can't do x, and you do x, you are breaking the rules. I can spin it any way I want, but I'm not going to do that. Braun broke the rules, and believe me, while I am a Brewer fan, and while I have long been a Ryan Braun fan, I was plenty pissed off at him. I was mad at him when the story first broke that he used a PED (per ESPN). I was more irked at ESPN for printing the story, because if they hadn't violated his rights as established by MLB, we would have never known about this (I still don't know if that's a good or a bad thing). But he broke the rules. Then, he compounded matters by lying about it. I do think he was coached on some of the things he said by his defense team, but ultimately, the buck stops with him. No matter how he was coached, he is a grown man, and responsible for the words that come out of his mouth. If he'd admitted to using the banned substance right away, this whole thing would have washed over by now. It hasn't because he poured more fuel on the fire, and that made me, and a lot of Brewer fans even more angry at him. Remember, as much as you guys dislike Braun now, there are a lot of Brewer fans who have had to listen to all the put downs, not only of Braun, but the Brewers franchise and ownership, too. And there have been a lot of negative things said about Brewer fans, and people in Wisconsin in general. So, trust me when I say that nobody is more sick of this than I am. But as somebody who has had to live with this for over three years, as somebody who has done an awful lot of reading, and research, and separating fact from fiction, the reason I am posting what I am is because much of what has been printed about Braun has been a complete fabrication.

Braun cheated, but lied about it, but people need to understand why he did. The Brewers are a small market team, and we haven't been to the World Series since 1982. Long before this whole mess started, Braun made a commitment to the Brewers, and the people of Wisconsin, that he wanted to bring them a World Series. He has done a lot of good for the people in southeast Wisconsin, and he's invested a lot of his own time, and money, to help improve the city, and help the people that live there. When it became obvious that Prince Fielder was leaving, after the 2011 season, Braun knew they had one shot to get to the World Series. The Brewer front office went all in, and added two front line pitchers. The Brewers were great, and won 96 games. But Braun, who had been battling a severe calf injury all year, was hurting badly by the end of the season. He was not getting better, and he was going to be nowhere near 100% when the post season came around. What he took did help him tremendously. All you have to do is look at the numbers he put up against the Diamondbacks to see that the rehabilitation regiment, combined with the substances he took, did help him heal up. That is why he did what he did, and that is what he said when he admitted fault.

Now, I want to make it very clear that I do not condone what he did. I don't think any Brewer fan worth their own weight would. I love the game of baseball more than anything. I love the game itself even more than I love the Brewers, and I have loved the Brewers for 37 years. Maybe Braun's intentions were good. None of you guys have watched this man play, or watched how he's carried himself throughout his time in Milwaukee like I have. He's been a model citizen, and he's gone above and beyond what the average baseball star would do in the city he plays in. Before the 2011 season, he signed a second extension, which committed him to the Brewers until the 2020 season. He made a lot of money in doing so, but he also took far less to stay in Milwaukee than he would have gotten if he'd signed with the Yankees, or the Dodgers. But, as they say, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. Braun might have made a calculated risk by taking a banned substance in order to heal, and give his team a chance to win the World Series. But he still broke the rules, and no intentions, no matter how good they might be, excuse breaking the rules. If anything, Braun was guilty of making a bad decision. Again, I do not think he tried to cheat the game. Braun has never needed PEDs. All you have to do is watch him play, and see his swing, and the way the ball jumps off his bat, to see that he's a naturally gifted hitter. The guy's got one of the most beautiful swings I've ever seen, and no PED made him into a 5 time Silver Slugger winner, and a three time top 3 MVP finisher.

I was mad at him for a good long time, because he let a lot of people down, myself included. The thrill I got watching him play was something I hadn't felt since Yount was a Brewer. And when he lied, it felt like a slap in the face. But eventually, Braun did the right thing. As he said, MLB never presented the evidence they had. Braun could have fought whatever punitive steps Major League Baseball might have tried to take against him. Their "star witness", Anthony Bosch, certainly was not credible at all. I think ultimately, Ryan just wanted to get out of the viscous cycle he'd created, and come clean. Now, some of you guys will quip "well, he only came clean because he got caught". Well, did he "come clean" the first time? No. If anything, one would think Braun less likely to admit his faults after winning one appeal already. Braun could have fought the Balco investigation, and maybe avoided suspension altogether. But in the end, I think Braun decided to own up to the mistakes he made. Then he went out of his way to make amends with the team ownership, his teammates, and Brewer fans. Now that he's done that, I've decided to give him a second chance. He's not a terrible person. He did some really stupid things, and again, I think the underlying motivation was good, if misguided. Ultimately, the inertia of the situation he created swept him up, and he couldn't get out.

Some people are never going to believe a word he says. That's fine. Every single person has to decide for themselves how they will look at another person. But I think there are a lot of sanctimonious people speaking out against him. People that have probably lied in the past, or done something they wish they could now go back, and handle differently. The difference between them and Ryan Braun is Braun is in the spotlight as a professional athlete, and the people talking crap about Braun on the internet do so under the cover of anonymity the internet creates. I count myself as an ethical person, and honest to a fault. In fact, I've been called a boy scout on more than one occasion. Yet even I have some things I'd like to do over. I am far from perfect, so I'm not going to sit here in judgement over another human being that has admitted the error of their ways. Braun has suffered enough. And as a Brewer fan, I think I have, too.

[packs]

Braun had synthetic testosterone in his system, quoted to be as high as 20:1 by the Daily News, 16 points above what would trigger a positive test.

How is that not a PED?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Braun wasn't looking to become a better player, but he was looking to become as close as possible to the player he'd always been.

Oddly, when he quit using banned substances he became a lesser player. How does that work?

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Braun cheated, but lied about it, but people need to understand why he did. The Brewers are a small market team, and we haven't been to the World Series since 1982. Long before this whole mess started, Braun made a commitment to the Brewers, and the people of Wisconsin, that he wanted to bring them a World Series. He has done a lot of good for the people in southeast Wisconsin, and he's invested a lot of his own time, and money, to help improve the city, and help the people that live there.

Well, if it's a small market team and Braun made a commitment, then I totally get it. We should all pitch in and buy him some more 'healing cream'. It's only right.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

All you have to do is look at the numbers he put up against the Diamondbacks to see that the rehabilitation regiment, combined with the substances he took, did help him heal up. That is why he did what he did, and that is what he said when he admitted fault.

So I guess his 2014 numbers were because the world traumatized the guy so much that he couldn't be expected to perform as he had in 'the cream' days?

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I am far from perfect, so I'm not going to sit here in judgement over another human being that has admitted the error of their ways. Braun has suffered enough. And as a Brewer fan, I think I have, too.

So as long as a liar admits he lied AFTER he is caught, then it's okay? Even ARod managed to do that.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

There is an important distinction between using a PED, a performance enhancing drug used to improve performance, and a banned substance used to expedite healing of an injury.

Hi Bill. What is the distinction? What would you tell the athletes that heal naturally? "Sorry, Dude?"

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Whoa, Braun didn't "sacrifice" anybody. Saying this shows a casual ignorance of the facts in this case, something a lot of people discussing this on the internet are guilty of because they took what ESPN, or Yahoo Sports printed in an article, and accepted it as fact without questioning the veracity of the information being presented (this is not in any way a knock on you personally, Scott).

That's a mouthful, Bill.

I did not need to, or desire to, do the research that you did, and the fact that I didn't, does not invalidate my statement. He was guilty, period, and he tried to push the focus onto someone who was NOT guilty. It was like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and arguing that your Mother was wearing the wrong pair of glasses when she saw you.

[sportscardtheory]

Brian Giles allegedly beat up his pregnant girlfriend, who then miscarried... ON TWO SEPARATE OCCASIONS. Yeah, he belongs right here.

[39special]

Ryan Braun
Alex Rodriguez
Steve Howe

[Section103]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Well I am glad I am not alone in believing slaughtering your 3 year old son, 6 year old daughter, and your spouse with an ax is a worse offense than using PEDs or being rude to fans.

The instance is, of course, worse than anything else listed here. But to me, the situation is far more sad and tragic than it is scandalous. The guy was very clearly not in his right mind and very far from it. We don't treat mental illness well today. I can only imagine how poorly it was handled then. I do fault the guy for not taking his meds (that's his responsibility) but somebody should have stepped in and institutionalized this guy way before anything like this happened. Its a failure on so many fronts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Section103

The instance is, of course, worse than anything else listed here. But to me, the situation is far more sad and tragic than it is scandalous. The guy was very clearly not in his right mind and very far from it. We don't treat mental illness well today. I can only imagine how poorly it was handled then. I do fault the guy for not taking his meds (that's his responsibility) but somebody should have stepped in and institutionalized this guy way before anything like this happened. Its a failure on so many fronts.

What meds were available in the 1890s?

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What meds were available in the 1890s?

Im no expert, to say the least, but bromides were what was prescribed for Bergen if we are to believe Wikipedia.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Section103

Im no expert, to say the least, but bromides were what was prescribed for Bergen if we are to believe Wikipedia.

Ah the good old days. I bet Burkett wrote a lot of those prescriptions in the day.

[frankbmd]

Peter, take your bromides and keep the doctor-patient relationship confidential.

[earlywynnfan]

I'm not surprised at how many picked Cobb, although I don't think he was nearly as bad as most believe. But why hasn't anyone named a player/manager that actually PRIDED himself on being an SOB??

I present to you: John J. Mugsy McGraw!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Peter, take your bromides and keep the doctor-patient relationship confidential.

The malpractice suit will be very public. I expected better from a doctor with 100 years of experience.