OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[glynparson]

amazes me how for students of the games history we get all sanctimonious about PED users. We act like this was developed as a gentlemen's game and played by men of honor and integrity. Very far from the actual beginnings and the vast majority of the early players of this game. We always suppose this guy or that guy would not have taken PED's we do not know this but we do know many have said and done things that are certainly not upstanding. The hall of fame is to honor the history of the game and no matter how hard we try to pretend these people are part of the history of the game. I am also sorry but I heard almost noone think the players were clean during the 1998 HR chase and the seasons after it. We all pretty much knew we just did not care than all of sudden when the AAron record was in jeopardy we all cared. Ratings were booming baseball was the talk of the sports world and the executives etc of the sport all knew what was going on. They did not care why should the players. Couple this with the fact that the sport deemed it illegal but had no penalties, I do not see it as just to all of a sudden impose this PED users arent allowed in attitude. This leads to a player like Bagwell who looks like PED user to me getting more votes than Clemens or Bonds because we are more positive they took. This process has become a joke and so has the hall of fame. Restore it to a museim to tell the sports history and leave the sanctimony at the door. If just taking these drugs made you an all time great why was Jason Giambi an MVP and allstar and Jeremy Giambi barely a bench warmer?

[marvymelvin]

Roger Maris. Can I bring his name up again? It seemed like 20 years ago everyone was arguing over whether Maris should get into the hall or not. Then it all died down after his final eligibility year. I know that I am a homer for the Yankees, but seriously, Maris deserves another look, especially when we are looking to clean up the game and recognize guys for determination, clean living, and sportsmanship. All of which I believe Maris was a great example. And he had respectable numbers.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by marvymelvin

Roger Maris. Can I bring his name up again? It seemed like 20 years ago everyone was arguing over whether Maris should get into the hall or not. Then it all died down after his final eligibility year. I know that I am a homer for the Yankees, but seriously, Maris deserves another look, especially when we are looking to clean up the game and recognize guys for determination, clean living, and sportsmanship. All of which I believe Maris was a great example.

Brad, I'm sorry. I just couldn't put Roger Maris in if I had a vote, as much as I liked the man, and as much as I admire what he accomplished in breaking Babe Ruth's single season home run record. I've never read a persuasive argument in favor of putting him into Cooperstown, and while he may have set a great example with how he lived his life, that in no way strengthens the argument for inducting him into the Hall of Fame. All that counts is what he did when he was wearing his uniform.

Originally Posted by marvymelvin

And he had respectable numbers.

He did have respectable numbers. But this is the Hall of Fame we're talking about, which should recognize only the greatest men to have ever played the game.

Roger Maris had two elite seasons, 1960 and 1961 when he won the AL MVP both years. He hit 100 home runs, and drove in 253 runs in those two seasons combined. Beyond those two MVP seasons, he was an All Star two other times, and he received MVP votes just one other time, in 1964 when he finished 25th in the vote. Maris was also a very good outfielder, underrated perhaps. He did win a Gold Glove in 1960.

But as hard as I try, I can't make a good argument in his favor. His career numbers, while good, don't even approach Hall of Fame consideration.

.260 AVG, 275 home runs, 850 RBI.
He had 1,325 hits. 195 doubles. 42 triples. He stole 21 bases.
His career slash line .345 OBP/.476 SLG/.822 OPS is good, but not great by any means.

Besides his two MVP seasons, he hit over 30 home runs in one other season, 1962, when he hit 33. That was also the only other season when he drove in 100 or more runs, at 100 exactly.
He hit 28 home runs in 1958, 23 home runs in 1963, and 26 in 1964. After the 1964 season, when he was 30 years old, he'd never hit more than 13 home runs in a single season again.

Roger didn't perform well in the post season, either. He was a .217 hitter in 41 career post season games. He had 33 hits in 152 at bats, with 6 home runs and 18 RBI. His .298 OBP/.369 SLG/.667 OPS wouldn't exactly excite the Veterans Committee.

Try as I may, the only thing Roger has going for him are his two MVP seasons, and there are other players with much better careers that have won two MVPs, and not made it into the Hall of Fame (Dale Murphy, for one, comes to mind).

[bbcard1]

Understanding this is a pre-war board and I am likely to open myself up to some criticism here…we have throughly exhausted good candidates from the pre-1950 era and, if we could, should probably remove several of them. The 1960s and 1970s are pretty underrepresented, especially the 60s where offense was so throttled.

[wolf441]

I also wonder how the marginal pre-1947 HOFers (Hafey, Marquard, Bresnahan, Klein, Bottomly, etc...) would have done if they had to pitch against players similar to Willie Mays, Henry Aaron or had to hit against Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, etc...

[frankbmd]

Imagine a world where every prewar player and batboy was in the Hall of Fame and our collections were worth millions as a result. All in favor.........

[Jim65]

I try not to judge players I never saw, not really fair to judge on stats alone. The only player I would put in thats not already is Mike Piazza, I believe he will get in eventually

There are quite a few players I would take out though.

[Jayworld]

I think Gene Tenace. He ranks 13th in JAWS on the catcher's list, above several HOF players:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

Also, Thurmon Munson

[sniffy5]

There is a Hall of Fame A and a Hall of Fame B. HOF A players you don't even have to think about. There is not a whole lot of them. HOF B are players require a hard look. Lots of people think requiring a hard look should be reason enough to prevent a player's induction. And I agree. Of course it's way more complicated than that b/c some feel 300 wins means automatic Hall, others don't think that is so. That's one example of many.

As for Clemens and Bonds, most writers are quick to point out they they were Hall of Famers before their embarrassingly obvious and shameless PED use. But I'm not entirely sure. Clemens got up to Toronto in 1997, dyed his hair blond and found the fountain of youth, and we all know what that fountain was comprised of. His numbers before PED use: 192-111, 3.16. Are these the numbers of a sure fire, absolutely no doubt hall of famer? Maybe they are. Maybe they are not...

[clydepepper]

when rules are bent is that you loose both perspective and the thought that, "There, by any other flip of the coin, would be me."

What Baseball has had and struggles mightily to keep is the special contact between the individual ex-player-wanna-be and the skilled professional.

You do not have to be 7-feet tall or 250 pounds or even especially fast. Good, if not great baseball play comes from practice after practice.

I will be the first to admit that I got thoroughly caught up in the afore-mentioned Home Run race of 1998. Everyone wanted to believe. I was on the edge of my seat as not one but two nice-guys surged toward a new standard.

I watched in great appreciation when McGwire seemed to treat the Maris family like great friends who had been neglected for a long time.

I was amazed as both players not only passed but shredded the previous high. Both guys learned to share the emotion of the moment with the adoring fans.

Yes, it was all dreamlike in the summer of 1998. And as one of that following crowd, I carry the guilt of being an enabler.

I really believed in McGwire because he had a great homerun stroke from day 1 as a rookie. He was just a golf-pro working out on a baseball diamond in 1987. I still believe THAT year was legit.

Then came the injuries and the Canseco influence. He went from being a fairly slim big guy to someone with 16-inch forearms...I SAY AGAIN 16-INCH FOREARMS.

Meanwhile, in Chicago, Sammy Sosa was caught with a corked bat which evidently he only used in BP. He said it was 'for the fans.' Right then and there, I knew he did not understand that a bigger part of most of our appreciation is that believing this is someone using the same tools and opportunities that could have been available to anyone.

Then comes Bonds and Clemens, already the best position player and best pitcher of the generation. But that was not enough. These two guys stand on the shoulders of giants who came before them. They had every legitimate advantage and then decided to get more...and more.

There is simply no way to figure out exactly what was legitimate work and what was not. This is like Baseball's version of Wall Street's insider trading.

The National Baseball Hall of Fame is home to some seriously flawed individuals I grant you, but why can't that injustice be stopped.

The writers are flawed in the elections - think of all of the greatest who were not elected unanimously just so someone can have their 15 minutes. (I guess I'm having my 15 hours right now, huh).

Shakespeare said, 'The play is the thing.' - and so, regardless of anything else, the game endures.

[Marslife]

Elroy Leon Face (born February 20, 1928 in Stephentown, New York) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed relief pitcher. During a 17-year baseball career, he pitched from 1953–1969, primarily for the Pittsburgh Pirates. A pioneer of modern relief pitching, he was the archetype of what came to be known as the closer, and the National League's greatest reliever until the late 1960s, setting numerous league records during his career.

Face was the first major leaguer to save 20 games more than once, leading the league three times and finishing second three times; in 1959 he set the still-standing major league record for winning percentage (.947) with 18 wins against only one loss. He held the NL record for career games pitched (846) from 1967 until 1986, and the league record for career saves (193) from 1962 until 1982; he still holds the NL record for career wins in relief (96), and he held the league mark for career innings pitched in relief (1,211⅓) until 1983. On his retirement, he ranked third in major league history in pitching appearances, behind only Hoyt Wilhelm and Cy Young, and second in saves behind Wilhelm. Nicknamed "The Baron," he holds the Pirates franchise records for career games (802) and saves (188).

[clydepepper]

It is played everywhere....

In parks, in playgrounds, and prison yards...

In back alleys and farmers' fields...

By small children and old men...

Raw amateurs and millionaire professionals.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is a leisurely game

That demands blinding speed.

The only game in which the defense has the ball.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It follows the seasons...

Beginning each year with the fond expectancy of springtime...

And ending with the hard facts of autumn.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is a haunted game...

In which every player is measured against the ghost
of all who have gone before

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Most of all...

It is about time and timelessness...

Speed and grace...

Failure and loss...

Imperishable hope

And

Coming home.