OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[Jlighter]

I would say Tommy John and Gil Hodges deserve to be in.

Castro and A-Rod will not be elected.

[clydepepper]

Minnie Minoso
Luis Tiant
Thurman Munson
George Van Haltren
Bob Caruthers


PEDers...NO - a thousand times NO!!

People always say that they deserve it because of what they did on the field.

I have what I feel are two strong arguments against their inclusion:

1.) Most importantly, they made the decision to go after honors, fame and accolades DURING their careers, instead of reaping those rewards in retirement...so why should they be HONORED twice?

2.) As long as guys like those on my list above are on the outside, cheaters should not be allowed in without a ticket.

[cardsfan73]

Oppps totally missed the outside of Jackson & Rose part! Btw Joe Torre is already on the Hall Of Fame.

Honestly I am a huge fan of a lot of the players mentioned (Murphy, Simmons & Whitaker) but I can't agree that any of them are Hall Of Famers.

Oliva was a lifetime .300 hitter & had a great stretch of about 8 years, but over all I don't see his career numbers being HOF worthy. Am I missing something with him?

[clydepepper]

...and Tony Oliva

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

PEDers...NO - a thousand times NO!!

People always say that they deserve it because of what they did on the field.

I have what I feel are two strong arguments against their inclusion:

1.) Most importantly, they made the decision to go after honors, fame and accolades DURING their careers, instead of reaping those rewards in retirement...so why should they be HONORED twice?

2.) As long as guys like those on my list above are on the outside, cheaters should not be allowed in without a ticket.

Pretty sure I disagree with you, but I also have no problem with that or with your overall sentiment/opinion. This is a very decisive issue, and I have trouble saying either side is wrong. Different people have very different POVs on this.

Without getting into the details of my logic (typing from a mobile device... But may add more later), I think the toughest thing with your position is- where do you draw the line? Do you have to have tested positive and/or been disciplined by MLB's policy? If so, you would be rewarding a lot of people who were just better at beating tests (can't help but be suspicious of Pujols... Based not only on appearance, but on things I've heard from a couple pretty inside sources... And frankly feel we should be suspicious about anyone now that lean muscle guys like Braun, or speed guys like Furcal have been caught). Can you omit people based on circumstantial evidence alone (this seems unfair and Piazza comes to mind)? It's just very tough, and then what bugs me more is that popularity begins to play too big a role... And many writers seem to revel in their role as gate keeper. I don't want to blast writers in general, but there are surely a lot of weasels in that bunch too.

A few "yes" for HOF--

Mussina given I think 250 should be the new 300... Hoping Hudon can rack up a few more to get serious consideration.

Crime Dog McGriff. This guy was so underrated. He hit 30 a year for over a decade, starting when 30 was a lot.. And for many years was one of the top 2-3 power hitters in the game. 490+ is close enough.

Also think Bonds/Clemens/etc should be there eventually.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

And frankly feel we should be suspicious about anyone now that lean muscle guys like Braun, or speed guys like Furcal have been caught).

Braun didn't use a performance enhancer, though, Ian, and I wish the sites like ESPN and Yahoo sports, who were so quick to condemn him absent of the facts, breaking the story during what was supposed to be a confidential appeals process, and before Shyam Das had even ruled on his appeal, would expend even half the energy they did then to report the truth.

The substance he took was used to accelerate healing of a pretty serious calf injury that had been bothering him all season. The bottom line is that he broke the rules, and yes, he should have been suspended, as he was at the end of last season. He let Brewers fans down big time. He let me down. I've been the biggest Ryan Braun fan since he came to the Majors in 2007. I loved it when he extended his contract, and stayed in Milwaukee for far less than he could have made if he tested free agency. And he's done an awful lot of good in Milwaukee, including working with a lot of charities. Of course, you never hear any of these stories. All you hear is how Braun is this terrible human being that "threw a little guy under the bus to save himself". Braun made a dumb mistake. But he's hardly the pariah the media have tried to make him out to be. So much of the crap that you read about him has been made up. But, there's nobody to hold ESPN's or Yahoo's feet to the fire. So, when Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports prints an article that Ryan Braun secretly contacted Matt Kemp, Joey Votto and Troy Tulowitzki to ask them for their public support, asserting that collector Dino Laurenzi Jr was an anti-semitic Cubs fan, everybody trashed Braun. When both Votto and Tulowitzki came out the very next day, calling the story pure fiction, did Yahoo or ESPN run that story? Of course not. Joey Votto even offered to provide his phone records to prove that no conversation between himself and Braun happened. But the damage had already been done.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Braun didn't use a performance enhancer, though, Ian, and I wish the sites like ESPN and Yahoo sports, who were so quick to condemn him absent of the facts, breaking the story during what was supposed to be a confidential appeals process, and before Shyam Das had even ruled on his appeal, would expend even half the energy they did then to report the truth.

The substance he took was used to accelerate healing of a pretty serious calf injury that had been bothering him all season. The bottom line is that he broke the rules, and yes, he should have been suspended, as he was at the end of last season. He let Brewers fans down big time. He let me down. I've been the biggest Ryan Braun fan since he came to the Majors in 2007. I loved it when he extended his contract, and stayed in Milwaukee for far less than he could have made if he tested free agency. And he's done an awful lot of good in Milwaukee, including working with a lot of charities. Of course, you never hear any of these stories. All you hear is how Braun is this terrible human being that "threw a little guy under the bus to save himself". Braun made a dumb mistake. But he's hardly the pariah the media have tried to make him out to be. So much of the crap that you read about him has been made up. But, there's nobody to hold ESPN's or Yahoo's feet to the fire. So, when Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports prints an article that Ryan Braun secretly contacted Matt Kemp, Joey Votto and Troy Tulowitzki to ask them for their public support, asserting that collector Dino Laurenzi Jr was an anti-semitic Cubs fan, everybody trashed Braun. When both Votto and Tulowitzki came out the very next day, calling the story pure fiction, did Yahoo or ESPN run that story? Of course not. Joey Votto even offered to provide his phone records to prove that no conversation between himself and Braun happened. But the damage had already been done.

Yeah Bill, sorry, I remember we'd discussed that in depth a while back. Just goes to show how far an irresponsibly reported black mark can go (damn writers). That said, think my point still applies- we probably should be suspicious of everyone. And keeping that in mind, think we should also be cautious not to over scritinize/tear down certain players (Bonds, etc), while seemingly forgiving others based on their popularity (Big Papi).

[pro9]

I've always felt that Cecil Travis should be in the HOF. He had fantastic numbers (.327 lifetime batting average) , before he went into the military for WWII and lost almost 4 prime years. Keep in mind that he was a shortstop and was never the same player after the war due to injuries sustained during combat. Ted Williams called him one of the five best left handed hitters he ever saw.

[johnmh71]

Wilbur Cooper
Babe Adams
Luis Tiant
Vern Stephens

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Yeah Bill, sorry, I remember we'd discussed that in depth a while back. Just goes to show how far an irresponsibly reported black mark can go (damn writers). That said, think my point still applies- we probably should be suspicious of everyone. And keeping that in mind, think we should also be cautious not to over scritinize/tear down certain players (Bonds, etc), while seemingly forgiving others based on their popularity (Big Papi).

I agree.

I think a big part of how Bonds and Papi are treated has to do with how they treat the media. Bonds was downright surly with the media most of the time. While Papi never met a reporter he didn't like, at least in my experiences. The folks in Boston love him, and even though he pretty much admitted to using PEDs, Ortiz could probably run for mayor and win.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I agree.

I think a big part of how Bonds and Papi are treated has to do with how they treat the media. Bonds was downright surly with the media most of the time. While Papi never met a reporter he didn't like, at least in my experiences. The folks in Boston love him, and even though he pretty much admitted to using PEDs, Ortiz could probably run for mayor and win.

Clemens and Belle fall into the Bonds catagory

[the 'stache]

As to the question at hand, who should be in the Hall that isn't? I don't think the answer to this is easy. Not at all. People who aren't in Cooperstown have been vetted. Their careers have been looked over with a fine tooth comb, and for some reason, they didn't meet that standard. Are there a few players that I feel are worthy of another look? Yes. There are always exceptions. Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame. Jerry Kramer, the great offensive guard for the Lombardi Packers of the 60s...5 time First Team All-Pro, 3-time Pro Bowler, 5 time World Champion, voted to both the NFL 1960's All Decade Team, and the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team. Inexplicably, he's not in the Hall of Fame. But if it were up to me, I'd be removing more players than I'd be putting in. The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.

Who would I consider going in?

That I'll have to think about.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame... The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.

NFL Hall of Fame is ridiculous. Each year there's a long list of very very deserving guys who may never get in. Tim Brown comes to mind, and I know he's nowhere near the most blatant example.

ADDING: I guess it's easier to add a few deserving guys, than to pull out some of the undeserving ones. So in that case the NFL's issue seems enviable compared to MLB.

Another MLBer I'd love to see in- Lefty O'Doul. I know he didn't have a long career, and his work in the PCL and popularizing baseball in Japan would probably need to be considered in order to give him the final nudge (rather than playing career alone), but would love to see him in.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

As to the question at hand, who should be in the Hall that isn't? I don't think the answer to this is easy. Not at all. People who aren't in Cooperstown have been vetted. Their careers have been looked over with a fine tooth comb, and for some reason, they didn't meet that standard. Are there a few players that I feel are worthy of another look? Yes. There are always exceptions. Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame. Jerry Kramer, the great offensive guard for the Lombardi Packers of the 60s...5 time First Team All-Pro, 3-time Pro Bowler, 5 time World Champion, voted to both the NFL 1960's All Decade Team, and the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team. Inexplicably, he's not in the Hall of Fame. But if it were up to me, I'd be removing more players than I'd be putting in. The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.

Who would I consider going in?

That I'll have to think about.

That's surprising, I would have bet good money that Kramer was in. It's actually inexplicable to me and adds to my belief that HOF voting for football and baseball is often without rhyme or reason.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by howard38

That's surprising, I would have bet good money that Kramer was in. It's actually inexplicable to me and adds to my belief that HOF voting for football and baseball is often without rhyme or reason.

That's the reaction I get most every time I bring him up. He's the only player on the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team not in Canton.

The explanation I've heard for this slight is "there are already too many of the Lombardi-era Packers in the Hall". That's hogwash, imo. That's like saying "hey, sorry, Mr. Jeter. You can't get into Cooperstown because there are too many Yankees already in the Hall." The Halls of Fame are there to recognize excellence, and Kramer was one of the all-time greats. Besides, linebacker Dave Robinson was just elected to the Hall of Fame last year, and he was a member of Lombardi's Packers from 1963 to 1967. So, maybe they can find a spot for #64, too. It would be a crying shame if they didn't put him in while he is still alive. He's 78 years old. The time is now.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

As to the question at hand, who should be in the Hall that isn't? I don't think the answer to this is easy. Not at all. People who aren't in Cooperstown have been vetted. Their careers have been looked over with a fine tooth comb, and for some reason, they didn't meet that standard. Are there a few players that I feel are worthy of another look? Yes. There are always exceptions. Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame. Jerry Kramer, the great offensive guard for the Lombardi Packers of the 60s...5 time First Team All-Pro, 3-time Pro Bowler, 5 time World Champion, voted to both the NFL 1960's All Decade Team, and the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team. Inexplicably, he's not in the Hall of Fame. But if it were up to me, I'd be removing more players than I'd be putting in. The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.

Who would I consider going in?

That I'll have to think about.

I agree on Kramer, I also think Jim Marshall is deserving.

[t206trader]

I grow weary of the Hall of Really Good versus Hall of Fame argument. Some players will always be better than others. If we had a Hall of Best there would only be one person. Where does one draw this supposed line? Many modern players will get in that some will think are unworthy or whose numbers are pedestrian. To say that most of the best players of the game were before the modern era or vice versa is a moot point. It's just silly to always compare apples to oranges.

[refz]

Nap Rucker
Gil Hodges
Ted Kluewzeski
Lee Smith

The above have my vote.

[toppcat]

Sy Berger

[Tabe]

Marvin Miller is a no-brainer HOFer - possibly the most-deserving guy not already in.

[the 'stache]

I agree about Miller, though I'm guessing there's still a few owners who will object.

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I would say Tommy John and Gil Hodges deserve to be in.

Castro and A-Rod will not be elected.

No way should A-Rod even be considered. And that's coming from a Yankee's fan.

[cardsfan73]

If there was a Hall OF Really Really Good Players a lot of these guys would be in! As far as modern guys I think Vlad Guerrero has a good shot.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Stephen Drew? Adrian Beltre is probably more eligible than 75% of that modern list, yet isn't accounted for.


Nap Rucker
Marty Marion
Omar Vizquel
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
Albert Belle
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff -- agree with Ian; its a travesty he's not looked at more favorably.

[Peter_Spaeth]

None of the above.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

None of the above.

LOL, Peter. You know you want Omar in, Man.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CobbvLajoie1910

LOL, Peter. You know you want Omar in, Man.

The Indians had some great hitting teams in the 90s, but it seemed Omar was always the one who torched the Red Sox.

[bobbvc]

Still waiting for a "real" Hall of Fame. 40 man roster. If someone goes in, someone comes out. (Ok, they could just move down an aisle). But would love to see a HOF where there weren't any guys "on the bubble".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Still waiting for a "real" Hall of Fame. 40 man roster. If someone goes in, someone comes out. (Ok, they could just move down an aisle). But would love to see a HOF where there weren't any guys "on the bubble".

Agreed. Although I think I would go higher than 40. Maybe to 100 or so tops.

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed. Although I think I would go higher than 40. Maybe to 100 or so tops.

Yeah, I know. I said 40 because of 40 man rosters. Another barrier to entry in my HOF. No voting for players who were playing when you were alive.
Especially in the voting for MLB players of the 20th Century, I always thought recent players had major bias in favor, to the point of not being able to take that team seriously. (I'm referring to the team the fans and MLB voted on in 1999 or so).

[Batter67up]

Gil Hodges &
Don Newcombe

The Hall is not much more than a popularity contest. Look at Chuck Klein he got voted in after he passed away by the Veterans Committee yet he was 1932 MVP, 4 time Homerun Champion, 2 Time RBI Champion, 320 Lifetime Avg, 300 Homeruns. He got elected in 1980 and passed away in 1958. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Batter67up

. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

I'm with you on that sentiment, and in many more instances than Klein (Mr McGriff included.. Do seriously only 11% think he deserves the nod? And if so, did they pay attention in the late '80's and '90's?).

In recent years, hearing many of these writers' interviews has been a nauseating experience. I do think a lot of these guys really know the game, but there seem to be nearly as many that love the opportunity to get on a soap box and grandstand (think photo ops during senate hearings). When I hear or read the bad ones, I often think of Max Mercy doing everything he could to discredit Roy Hobbs in the Natural... A guy who never played the game, and probably at heart loves to destroy boyhood idols because he's secretly jealous of all the attention these jocks got when he was was kid. This of course is not representative of all, but Max often comes to mind, and I have lost a lot of respect for many of them over the past several yearS. (though do love Scott Ostler from the SF Chron)

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Batter67up

Gil Hodges &
Don Newcombe

The Hall is not much more than a popularity contest. Look at Chuck Klein he got voted in after he passed away by the Veterans Committee yet he was 1932 MVP, 4 time Homerun Champion, 2 Time RBI Champion, 320 Lifetime Avg, 300 Homeruns. He got elected in 1980 and passed away in 1958. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

How about what they did to Santo?

writers are like lawyers- an unfortunate necessity.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Batter67up

Gil Hodges &
Don Newcombe

The Hall is not much more than a popularity contest. Look at Chuck Klein he got voted in after he passed away by the Veterans Committee yet he was 1932 MVP, 4 time Homerun Champion, 2 Time RBI Champion, 320 Lifetime Avg, 300 Homeruns. He got elected in 1980 and passed away in 1958. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

Chuck Klein was the 1930s version of Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Jim Rice, and a whole host of other guys whose numbers were enormously inflated by their home ballparks. In 1931, for example, he hit .401 with 22 HRs at home and just .269 with 9 HRs on the road. He basically had a 5-year run of greatness thanks to Baker Bowl with a fine 1936 season mixed in.

Klein is also, I believe, the only guy besides Ted Williams to win the Triple Crown in a season but not also win the MVP (Williams did it twice).

Bottom line: The writers got it right by not electing Klein.