Poll for Buying Cards with Chemically Removed Stains

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Leon

money

Some people don't like it when other's make money. If a card is sells for less than it was bought for most won't complain other than the seller. If a card sells for more than it was bought for that upsets a lot of people other than the seller (including quick flips, switching grading companies, and getting a bump in grading)

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Glad to see that you know me so well. By the way, you keep forgetting your hashtag's when you make your posts.



Sincerely, Clayton

Keep stirring the pot. #HereYouGo

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by T2069bk

No one disagrees that the failure to disclose in search of extending profits is unethical as has been continuosly discussed, but as I read the responses I can't help but feel that the undercurrent of that argument includes that if you would buy them you are unethical as well.

I think we have to be careful about judging those who disagree with us, as being unethical, or feeling that those who we disagree with think that we are unethical. I certainly don't think buyers of cleansed cards are unethical, nor do I think many others here do. I've heard some of the most ethical people in our hobby state that they don't mind chemically-cleansed or trimmed cards.

As an aside: Clayton, Alex - what the heck is a 'hash tag'? I keep hearing the ESPN bozos quote tweets, including the word 'hash-tag', which sounds so weird. Are people actually human-talking in text-speak now?!?!?!

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I think we have to be careful about judging those who disagree with us, as being unethical, or feeling that those who we disagree with think that we are unethical. I certainly don't think buyers of cleansed cards are unethical, nor do I think many others here do. I've heard some of the most ethical people in our hobby state that they don't mind chemically-cleansed or trimmed cards.

As an aside: Clayton, Alex - what the heck is a 'hash tag'? I keep hearing the ESPN bozos quote tweets, including the word 'hash-tag', which sounds so weird. Are people actually human-talking in text-speak now?!?!?!

Hi Scott,

You bring up a valid point and I can see how my comments may have implied that. And I will apologize for that as well, if that's the case.

But, I will not go as far as to say I think this issue of chemically cleaning cards is good, or right. Still 100% against it. I feel that regardless of the reasoning behind it, it sets a bad precedent and affects the integrity of the card. Unless we are all going to be buried with these cards, they will eventually end up in another collectors hands. I am not convinced that there will be no long term damage in some form. I look at it the same way I look at trimming, adding color, removing color, or any other alteration.

But at the end of the day, I have no right to tell someone what is right for them to do with their cards. If people want to draw pink hearts and smiley faces on them, that's their business I guess. I keep my cards in the exact same condition I receive them in, dingy or not, a blemish, stain, wrinkle- rounded corners-to me it's what I love about them. I don't want to remove anything that has traveled with it over the past century, but that's just me.

As far as tweeting, I don't do it either, and understand very little about it. I know all tweets have a hashtag and are usually one or two sentences long, and I believe it is because there is a very small character limit allowed in a tweet. I have no idea what the hashtag does, hell, I've never even sent a text message before (other than an email)

I am glad to see more people are against this than for it, but at the same time it's sad to see how many people are ok with it. Just my opinion folks.

Sincerely, Clayton

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

It seems like a lot of the concern people have about soaking or cleaning is that the cards may be sold without disclosure in the future. I address this problem by keeping a detailed excel spreadsheet.

The sheet lists my collection with the purchase price and notes on condition. Among the condition notes are if I soaked the card or suspect that it has been trimmed in the past.

I find this system to be very helpful because it helps me know which cards to upgrade. Also it gives me some peace of mind in knowing that it would help my wife sell my collection if (really when) I die.

[E93]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Some good questions would be:
1) If you purchased this card all cleaned up and later discovered the before scan on this forum, would you be pissed?
2)Would you want your money back?
3)Would the seller/auction house/TPG be obliged to give you your money back?

JimB

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

It seems like a lot of the concern people have about soaking or cleaning is that the cards may be sold without disclosure in the future.

Correct! As a buyer, this is one of my biggest concerns. Disclosure. Good post Alex!

Sincerely, Clayton

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by E93

Some good questions would be:
1) If you purchased this card all cleaned up and later discovered the before scan on this forum, would you be pissed?
2)Would you want your money back?
3)Would the seller/auction house/TPG be obliged to give you your money back?

JimB

1) Absolutely. You can clearly see that the card was altered-just check out the shading in the uniform, that says it all.

2) Yes.

3) I've never dealt with an auction house, so not sure how to answer that one.Maybe someone with more experience could explain who would ultimately be responsible. But- herein lies the problem when someone who cleans cards with ANY type of unknown (unknown to everyone but the "cleanser") chemicals, and thinks just because it can pass through the graders that all is well-just look at the Plank. It crossed over and got a .5 bump. But, when you see the comparison scans, to me, it screams "altered". Should be graded "A". Will this card degrade 10-20 years from now?

Sincerely, Clayton

[midwaylandscaping]

I don't buy restored comics.
I wouldn't buy a restored/ chemically aided card.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

1) Absolutely. You can clearly see that the card was altered-just check out the shading in the uniform, that says it all.

2) Yes.

3) I've never dealt with an auction house, so not sure how to answer that one.Maybe someone with more experience could explain who would ultimately be responsible. But- herein lies the problem when someone who cleans cards with ANY type of unknown (unknown to everyone but the "cleanser") chemicals, and thinks just because it can pass through the graders that all is well-just look at the Plank. It crossed over and got a .5 bump. But, when you see the comparison scans, to me, it screams "altered". Should be graded "A". Will this card degrade 10-20 years from now?

Sincerely, Clayton

That's pretty much how I look at that card too.

I'd be mad, and I'd want some change in price either a full return or some reduction.

But I don't think the auction house would be required to give me anything unless they were part of or knew about the cleaning.

I do have a feeling that that particular card will have problems in a few years.
And the way I view that card is different from how I view other cards that were cleaned less aggressively.


Steve B

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by E93

Some good questions would be:
1) If you purchased this card all cleaned up and later discovered the before scan on this forum, would you be pissed?
2)Would you want your money back?
3)Would the seller/auction house/TPG be obliged to give you your money back?

No, no and no.

Did Kendrick get mad when he found out that his Wagner was trimmed? Probably not. Did he ask for his money back? Probably not. If finding out purchasing a $2+ million trimmed card didn't upset Kendrick, why should purchasing a cleaned card bother me? I have too many other important things to worry about in life.

The questions also infer that the card (Plank) loses value now that is publicized that it's been cleaned. Did the Wagner lose value after it was publicized it's been trimmed? Again, probably not.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Did Kendrick get mad when he found out that his Wagner was trimmed?

Interesting question. Part of me finds it unfathomable to not be indifferent that a $2.8 Million dollar investment turned out to be fraudulent, yet at the same time the apathy and indifference towards fraud and deception in this hobby at times has been astounding.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by E93

Some good questions would be:
1) If you purchased this card all cleaned up and later discovered the before scan on this forum, would you be pissed?
2)Would you want your money back?
3)Would the seller/auction house/TPG be obliged to give you your money back?

JimB

IF I was able to pay the money for a plank I think I would pay more for the clean one even after they disclosed it. I know I am in the minority (as shown by the above poll) but that is me. Also there isn't a single card in my collection currently that is cleaned to my knowledge, but I wouldn't have a problem with it if I found out one had been cleaned. I do have some that are trimmed, but I would never pay more for a card that is altered (in my mind altered is not the same as cleaned).

I just can't imagine ever being upset and thinking "DANG IT! I wish this card still had a coffee stain!"

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

No, no and no.

Did Kendrick get mad when he found out that his Wagner was trimmed? Probably not. Did he ask for his money back? Probably not. If finding out purchasing a $2+ million trimmed card didn't upset Kendrick, why should purchasing a cleaned card bother me? I have too many other important things to worry about in life.

The questions also infer that the card (Plank) loses value now that is publicized that it's been cleaned. Did the Wagner lose value after it was publicized it's been trimmed? Again, probably not.

I agree with you about "too many other important things to worry about in life", and if we weren't discussing this card, I wouldn't give it much thought; however, with all respect, you can compare the trimmed Wagner and the chemicalized Plank in terms of their both being slabbed alterations of 'big' cards, but that's about it - the T206 Wagner is famous and has a long pedigree, including a book and a huge court debacle. All of that has apparently kept it's value steady. If it is sold again, we'll see if that holds.

The Plank has none of that going for it, although Eddie now gives the appearance that he's no longer embarrassed to be in a slab, and is ready to be on a slab instead.

If you really want to compare the two, and chemical-cleaning is going to be deemed okay, you would have to imagine that trimming is also okay, and doesn't have to be disclosed for PSA-slabbed cards. In such a world you would only have 'before' and 'after' scans. I would go for chemicals over that scenario.

[teetwoohsix]

I have a question for the memorabilia collectors here-hopefully some are reading this thread. Is it taboo to clean memorabilia? Bats with wood chips missing, is it ok to fill those in? Cleaning up a glove, or a ball? A seat from a stadium that no longer exists-if the paint is dull, is it ok to paint it back to it's original color, because it would "look" better? Or, do collectors of these items like the item to be left exactly how they received it?

Thanks in advance for any responses, I appreciate the input-

Sincerely, Clayton

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I have a question for the memorabilia collectors here-hopefully some are reading this thread. Is it taboo to clean memorabilia? Bats with wood chips missing, is it ok to fill those in? Cleaning up a glove, or a ball? A seat from a stadium that no longer exists-if the paint is dull, is it ok to paint it back to it's original color, because it would "look" better? Or, do collectors of these items like the item to be left exactly how they received it?

Thanks in advance for any responses, I appreciate the input-

Sincerely, Clayton

You list several different examples there and I think each would be treated differently. I think it would be taboo to clean game-used memoribilia - bats, glove, balls. Those are expected to show signs of game-use.

I think it would be okay to restore a stadium seat, but that's just my opinion. If it's something you're going to display in your home, some may want to restore it, some may want to keep is as it was. I think that's just a matter of personal preference.

What about other types of memoribilia? I have some autographed mini-helmets (football and baseball), that reside on my bookshelves and they tend to get dust on them. I occasionally wipe them with down a damp cloth to remove the dust. I see nothing wrong wtih that.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You list several different examples there and I think each would be treated differently. I think it would be taboo to clean game-used memoribilia - bats, glove, balls. Those are expected to show signs of game-use.

I think it would be okay to restore a stadium seat, but that's just my opinion. If it's something you're going to display in your home, some may want to restore it, some may want to keep is as it was. I think that's just a matter of personal preference.

What about other types of memoribilia? I have some autographed mini-helmets (football and baseball), that reside on my bookshelves and they tend to get dust on them. I occasionally wipe them with down a damp cloth to remove the dust. I see nothing wrong wtih that.

Thanks for the reply David. Makes sense.

As far as wiping down your mini-helmets, that sounds reasonable. Now, if you were using Windex.... Side note, a Swifter may be better

Brian- I'm not sure on the Plank. There are many questions I would have-like, who sent it in to be cleaned, the consignor? The auction house? Combination of both? What was it cleaned with? Who cleaned it? Who submitted it? Was it disclosed (all information) to the winner? As far as the last question-if it were disclosed (all information) to the buyer, and he followed through, I guess the buyer would be ok with the card as is.

It's mind boggling that with such a high profile card that they would go to those extremes for a .5 bump!!

As far as value-of course varies, but I'm sure someone could look up what it sold for. I don't even know what auction house sold it.

It is clearly chemically altered, and an altered card should not have the numerical grade-in my opinion. The scans are the proof.

Sincerely, Clayton

[freakhappy]

Clayton, I'm not sure that the chemically cleaned plank should have been numerically graded and I'm sure the tpg's did not test for such a thing, but what if nothing shows up on the card as being altered? I mean, I clearly see that the card has been treated one way or another, but other than the pics, what proof is there that this card has been altered? Water can change the appearance of a card, but most people have no issue with it and I definitely see two sides of the spectrum on this debate...does water/chemicals clean a card or alter it? Are you ok with a card that has received a numerical grade that has been soaked in water? I don't soak cards myself, but I have never looked down on people for doing so with water and I'm not ready to say it's 100% ok to clean a card with chemicals...but where do we draw the line?




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[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Clayton, I'm not sure that the chemically cleaned plank should have been numerically graded and I'm sure the tpg's did not test for such a thing, but what if nothing shows up on the card as being altered? I mean, I clearly see that the card has been treated one way or another, but other than the pics, what proof is there that this card has been altered? Water can change the appearance of a card, but most people have no issue with it and I definitely see two sides of the spectrum on this debate...does water/chemicals clean a card or alter it? Are you ok with a card that has received a numerical grade that has been soaked in water? I don't soak cards myself, but I have never looked down on people for doing so with water and I'm not ready to say it's 100% ok to clean a card with chemicals...but where do we draw the line?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Mike,

In my opinion, you can clearly see the Plank has been altered by chemicals. If you just look at the uniform, you can see this. It didn't just remove a stain, it removed shading in the uniform and also color in other areas. That, to me, is altered. In the case of the Plank, it literally looks bleach white!! I mean, plain old water won't do that.

I think when people bring cleaning cards with water into the issue of cleaning cards with chemicals, it distracts from the topic at hand, which is using chemicals to clean cards. It is almost putting the two on a level playing field, when it is not. Many of these cards have been exposed naturally to moisture over the century, rain, damp basements, etc. so comparing a card exposed to water (in my opinion) isn't the same discussion. I think it's another topic that deserves it's own thread.

That Plank is whiter than any T206 I have, and may be the whitest T206 I have ever seen. It looks unnatural. How a grader didn't notice THAT is beyond me. A 100+ year old card being bleach white.

Sincerely, Clayton

[freakhappy]

Hey Clayton,

You bring up valid points for sure and in the plank's case, you are definitely right, but how about other cards that don't get affected visually by chemicals? I know you are passionate about this subject, but let's say there is no proof of long term effects for using chemicals and all it does is clean the card...what then? The plank was obviously abused by someone that didn't know what they were doing, but I'm sure there are other examples that do not affect the visual appeal. Moderation is key to a lot of things in life, right? So what is there in these "chemicals" that makes cleaning them so wrong? I guess what I'm looking for is the list of contents/ingredients so we know what is right and wrong to use. Can we get a list or do we just go generic and say all chemicals? IMO this subject needs to dig a lot deeper if we are going to assume the generic route.


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[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Hey Clayton,

I know you are passionate about this subject, but let's say there is no proof of long term effects for using chemicals and all it does is clean the card...what then?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm just breaking this down to address this first. We can't have proof of long term effects when no one is doing a comprehensive long term study-so, we may have something like "short term effects". Here is one of the problems. Long term effects currently unknown.

Sincerely, Clayton

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Hey Clayton,

So what is there in these "chemicals" that makes cleaning them so wrong? I guess what I'm looking for is the list of contents/ingredients so we know what is right and wrong to use. Can we get a list or do we just go generic and say all chemicals? IMO this subject needs to dig a lot deeper if we are going to assume the generic route.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Excellent question! And, another part of the problem. We aren't privy to a list of the chemicals being used because they are being used by people who are making money doing it. Consider it a "trade secret", so to speak. So- how can you do a long term study when you have no clue what chemicals are being used? Who is going to provide a list? Not the people who are cleaning these cards, getting them past the graders, and getting more and more collectors using their services. I highly doubt that.

So, for me, I am left with having to assume any and all chemicals-and when I think of that, I'd prefer these cards to not be treated with ANY chemicals-detectable in the short term or not.

Sincerely, Clayton