Color "error" variations in t206 cards

[drumback]

I'm wondering why, if indeed sunlight is responsible for the majority of color variations, red sometimes fades to a very light red, and other times fades to a bright orange. Not an expert by any means, but this doesn't make sense to me.

[MVSNYC]

Hi Mark, i don't think anyone here said the sun is responsible for the "majority" of color variations. in fact, i think i stated that the majority of color scraps/errors are legit...suggesting, the sun or chemicals are responsible for the color damage, in only a smaller percentage of cases. we got kinda sidetracked in this thread debating whether or not UV light can damage/fade cards/posters. we know it can...anyway, there's plenty of real, legit color variations out there from the factory.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by drumback

I'm wondering why, if indeed sunlight is responsible for the majority of color variations, red sometimes fades to a very light red, and other times fades to a bright orange. Not an expert by any means, but this doesn't make sense to me.

Red on the cards isn't always just red... sometimes red is layered on top of orange (combination of pink/buff and yellow). See the McGinnity's in this auction (I was the consignor and honestly was hoping for a much higher price). It you notice on the one with the red, on the left side near the face you can see some of the orange. I think in the sunlight theory that the red layer is faded away to reveal the color(s) underneath.

[drumback]

So, you are saying they used three different layers to end up at red? Why would they do that? Doesn't that just unnecessarily add cost to the process?

[teetwoohsix]

Ben- very interesting and thanks for showing that. It's also interesting that in was in UV protective plastic and still did that.

Steve- Thanks for the explanation. I was reading about paper & trying to research to find out what type of material they were using back then. I found this site: http://www.pulpandpaper.org/history.shtml Pretty interesting stuff.

O/T a little-my wife bought a floral print very colorful outdoor rug for our patio. I has black, red, yellow, orange, blue, gray. I think it's been out there about 8 months now. ALL of the colors have faded-evenly. Every color faded out the same.No color completely faded away (yet, at least). I know it has nothing to do with cards-but I understand the sun can fade colors. Steve gave a great explanation as to why the red is affected the most, but I'm still having trouble with the idea that you would not even be able to tell the red was once there.

Even on Erick's card (hey Erick ) you can tell there was some type of glue or paste or something on the back of the card, at one time. It leaves you to wonder, is it missing color from the press, or was it from chemical/glue/paste, etc.? This may have been why it didn't go for as much as you'd hoped for-I'm just guessing on that one. Awesome card though!

Now, I'm going to post this Sharpe card because I think somewhere along the line this card was either glued into a scrapbook, or came into contact with some type of chemical/glue/solvent/something? The back of the card has blue ink smeared all over it (blue same in from the "Piedmont" add) and the red on the front looks a bit light to me (sorry for the crappy scans). The reason I am showing this is because with whatever happened to this card, you can still see the red is red.

And lastly, I'm not saying anyone is wrong here- just trying to cover all areas, and trying to figure out a sure fire way to detect a true missing red pass card from what some of you say is a card that has been affected by the sun. Rob and Ron posted about the Abstein card, and I think that card is legitimately missing the red pass in quite a few of them. The same way I think the Willis portrait was deliberately printed with two different colors-red and burgundy (or would you call it violet?). Maybe many more missed the red pass, and it would be pretty cool to try to place some of these cards on the same sheet if possible. That's for another thread I'm sure

Sincerely, Clayton

[steve B]

Ok, this was a reply to Mark. Except I missed page11 and didn't quote. So it looks totally out of place. DOH!

That was the way they did things at the time. Not all of the inks were opaque, so layering worked very well and produced better color. The bright red is typically over at least pink. And many of the brown team logos on uniforms are brown over gray.
It also allows a thinner ink coating, with two benefits. Better detail, and less ink used. Over millions of cards it probably worked out cheaper.

It's similar to painting a car. Most just use the gray primer, but if the car is a dark color a good painter will use black primer. Or red under red, white under white. Gray under light colors.

Steve B

[drumback]

Thanks, Steve, for the explanation. I am learning a lot from this thread.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by t206hound

I think in the sunlight theory that the red layer is faded away to reveal the color(s) underneath.

If the sun faded away the red to reveal the colors underneath then shouldn't the background on that McGinnity be yellow instead of orange? Question is not directed at you Er!ck, just asking in general for this discussion.

Yellow was the base background color and the second ink pass applied to darken the background is still evident on the card.

Not saying it isn't possible, but its kind of a stretch to think that the sun faded off only the top layer of background ink and stopped there. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Clayton - I wish the glue on the back of that McGinnity had leached out all of the red ink. Then my McGinnity would be a blank back!


Jantz

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by drumback

So, you are saying they used three different layers to end up at red? Why would they do that? Doesn't that just unnecessarily add cost to the process?

It's simply a matter of color matching... how deep or bright they wanted the red to be. Not all reds are three layers... but sometimes multiple passes of ink were used to get the "right" color.

Originally Posted by Jantz

If the sun faded away the red to reveal the colors underneath then shouldn't the background on that McGinnity be yellow instead of orange? Question is not directed at you Er!ck, just asking in general for this discussion.

Yellow was the base background color and the second ink pass applied to darken the background is still evident on the card.
Jantz

I believe the McGinnity was missing the ink pass; I'm sure the back damage (albeit very localized) caused the lower price. Maybe the one card I most regret selling; along with a McGraw Red Hindu.

It's my opinion that most Orange that appears in T206 cards is a mix/combination of yellow and pink/buff (not a mix of yellow and red).

In the case of McGinnity, I believe the background color passes for the background were yellow, then pink/buff (to yield orange), then red. Given either the "sunlight theory" (disappearing red ink) or "missing ink theory", orange is the layer underneath. Again, just my guess, but that's why I believe the background in that McGinnity is orange and not yellow.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Jantz

If the sun faded away the red to reveal the colors underneath then shouldn't the background on that McGinnity be yellow instead of orange? Question is not directed at you Er!ck, just asking in general for this discussion.

Yellow was the base background color and the second ink pass applied to darken the background is still evident on the card.

Not saying it isn't possible, but its kind of a stretch to think that the sun faded off only the top layer of background ink and stopped there. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Clayton - I wish the glue on the back of that McGinnity had leached out all of the red ink. Then my McGinnity would be a blank back!


Jantz

Jantz, you bring up an excellent point, and it's something I've been overlooking in all of this. I also remember you've brought this up before in the past- if the glue would remove the red from the front, how could it not affect the red on the back?

So, it seems that we could rule that out on the McGinnity. It also has me wondering about the cards on the montage-I wonder how the backs of those cards look.

This has been a great conversation, I love these kinds of threads. I'm still not sure about the sunlight removing all of the red on a card-fading, I can buy that one i guess-just having trouble with the sun being able to remove all traces of red, so that you would never know it was even there.Maybe it's possible, and I am wrong.That's my stumbling block in all of this.

Sincerely, Clayton

[MuddyMules]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Red on the cards isn't always just red... sometimes red is layered on top of orange (combination of pink/buff and yellow). See the McGinnity's in this auction (I was the consignor and honestly was hoping for a much higher price). It you notice on the one with the red, on the left side near the face you can see some of the orange. I think in the sunlight theory that the red layer is faded away to reveal the color(s) underneath.

Take a look at the picture I have attached. The halftone dots are all at different angles for each color (Black, Cyan, Magenta and Yellow). Look at both of the McGinnity's with a powerful loupe and see if the magenta dots are running at the same angle on both cards. It is very possible that a yellow negative was shot on a magenta plate for the one on the left. Then it was caught by someone and a new plate was made with the correct negative on the correct plate.

Also, it is possible that the magenta and yellow plates were mislabeled before they went to press or the pressman put the yellow plate on the magenta cylinder and the magenta plate on the yellow cylinder and then caught the mistake and swapped the plates.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MuddyMules

Take a look at the picture I have attached. The halftone dots are all at different angles for each color (Black, Cyan, Magenta and Yellow). Look at both of the McGinnity's with a powerful loupe and see if the magenta dots are running at the same angle on both cards. It is very possible that a yellow negative was shot on a magenta plate for the one on the left. Then it was caught by someone and a new plate was made with the correct negative on the correct plate.

Also, it is possible that the magenta and yellow plates were mislabeled before they went to press or the pressman put the yellow plate on the magenta cylinder and the magenta plate on the yellow cylinder and then caught the mistake and swapped the plates.

I'm glad you posted that graphic. I hadn't seen it before.

It only applies to the modern CMYK process though.
T206s are a combination of halftone and solid passes, and use many more than 4 colors. Where they're halftones most seem to be screened at the same angle.

Here's a closeup of Schlei, showing black, gray, light blue, dark blue, and pink.
Gray and Black are halftone the others aren't.


Steve B

[The Nasty Nati]

Not to completely change the subject, but in regards to UV harm, do SGC and PSA slabs offer UV protection?