What's the real deal with these Cuban cards?

[T206DK]

I have a phone number for ebay Ryan

[ctownboy]

Again I am STILL confused!!!!

I thought the sellers were in Spain and that the cards were found in Spain.

Now I am reading there are four people involved ins elling these cards and the cards are in Cuba.

If the sellers are in Cuba and the cards are in Cuba, then why would a person lie about where they are and where the cards are from?

David

[Scocs]

My guess: since Americans are buying these cards, then the owner (in Cuba) ships to seller (in Spain), who then ships to you in USA. Not sure if that's true, but it makes logical sense.

[ctownboy]

Scocs,

I thought that might be what was going on. But, imho, if it is, then that type of deception is another red flag against the authenticity of these cards.

Finding an unknown issue of Cuban baseball cards in Spain adds some credibility to the story. I mean, the thinking would go, "Who in Spain would fake cards and where would they get the source material to do so?". However, if the sellers and cards are both in Cuba then there would be plenty of source material to fake cards and the story wouldn't hold up so well....

Not saying the cards are fakes because I don''t know but changing the location of the seller from Spain to Cuba, to me, seems like it would make a big difference.

I will now sit back and see what happens next.

Somebody please add the popcorn emoticon to this thread....

David

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

I will now sit back and see what happens next.

Somebody please add the popcorn emoticon to this thread....

David

We could just get Gizmo to bring the popcorn..

If only we could get these two to debate each other... I think that would be fun...

[Exhibitman]

So the origins story on eBay is false and designed to evade American law? Yikes!

[Cubanball]

Since my name has been listed by the seller of the Romeo y Julieta cards in the eBay description, and in this forum, without my permission, I thought I should add what I know to the discussion. I have known of the existence of the Romeo y Julieta cards for a few years now. My first impression upon seeing images of the cards brought up many red flags. Since I did not get to inspect the cards personally I decided not to add them to my Cubanball web site. At the beginning of this discussion I was contacted by Rolando from Cuba via email stating adamantly that this group of cards currently on eBay are real. I respect Rolando’s opinion highly and added the cards to my web site. Still I am not 100% convinced either way. To assist with the discussion here is what I have been able to discern about the cards based on the images we have available. I am concentrating on the Almendares cards since those are the ones that are causing the most concern.

Carlos Royer:

Front of card: The card pictures Carlos Royer in Almendares uniform. The same photo used in the Punch set. The picture is cropped and the background whited out. It is possible that the picture is whited out because it came from a newspaper archive. Newspaper would sometimes white out backgrounds when adding a photo of a player to a story. The card has the team name “ALMENDARES” hand written in white at above the player photo and his name “Calos Royer,” his nickname “Bebe” and position “P.” hand written in white below the player photo. Note the “R” missing from his first name. The front of the card has some creasing and stains that could be natural or added purposely to show age.

Back of card: The back of the card has the players name and nickname, spelled correctly, team name and “Serie 1911.” This is interesting since Carlos Royer was indeed with Almendares for the 1910 Cuban league championship but was with Club Fe in 1910-11 season. Next you have his “Batting Average” and “Fielding Average.” A few at this forum have question the fact that they are written in English, but this is not a problem. Cubans learned baseball in the U.S. and from Americans in the island and Cubans were familiar with the English baseball terms. Many early Cuban baseball publications are replete with English baseball terms. Also it is not strange to list a pitcher’s batting average since back then a pitcher would likely play the field in games he was not pitching in and off course bat on days he pitched. Now we get to the stats themselves. I have been unable to place the year of the batting average stats listed. The 8 J (games), 20 V (at-bats), 2 C (runs), 5 H (hits), and 250 Ave do not match his regular season totals for any of his seasons as listed on the 1956 Beisbo Cubano (Records y Estadisticas) by Gabino Delgado and Severo Nieto. I also checked the Negro Leagues Database as well. Another possibility, which makes more sense, is that the stats reference the “American Series.” In 1911 Almendares played four games against the Phillies and six games against the Giants. Unfortunately I do not have any American Series source for comparison. The card has printed the “Obsequio de los Cigarros ROMEO y JULIETTA” that identify the maker. The back of the card also shows aging. The card was not cut entirely straight with the bottom showing signs of hand cutting.

Estaquio Pedroso: The same format applies to the front and back of the cards of the Pedroso card as the Royer card. I will concentrate on the differences.

Front of card: Pedroso’s name is written correctly on the front of the card. The cards shows less wear and staining than the Royer card.

Back of card: The card lists him playing for “Almendares” and the series as 1915 (Serie 1915). Pedroso did play for Almendares in the 1914-15 season and in the 1915 American series. Almendares played 9 games against the Indianapolis ABCs in the 1915 American Series which match the number of games in the stats on the back of the card. The aging is similar to the Royer card and the cut is inconsistent as well.

Emilio Palomino: The same format applies to the front and back of the cards of the Palomino card as the Royer and Pedroso cards.

Front of card: Palomino’s first initial and last name is written in the front of the card. Along with his position as R. F. (right field).

Back of card: The back, like the Royer card, list the team as Almendares and the series as 1911. According to my sources Palomino did play with Almendares in the regular 1910-11 season. Again the stats would be consistent with the American Series, but not the regular season. The back shows more foxing than the other cards and the cut is slightly off on one edge.

Evaristo Pla: The same format applies to the front and back of the cards of the Pla card as the other cards.

Front of the card: Pla’s full name is written correctly on the front of the card along with his position as “Director.”

Back of the card: There are no stats since he is correctly listed as Director and Trainer for Almendares. The back shows aging consistent with the other cards. The cut is straighter than the others.

As for the years of the cards I agree with Ryan, based on the match between the back of the Falagan and Pla cards, that they were printed in the same year very likely circa 1922. I hope this adds some constructive information to the discussion.

[ElCabron]

Thanks for your excellent input, Cesar. In your opinion, how confident would you say you are that they are real? I don't want to speak for him, but it sounds like Rolando is 100% confident. A few days ago, I was around 75% confident. Right now, more like 50%. How about you?

-Ryan

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by T206DK

I have a phone number for ebay Ryan

That would be very helpful, Dave. Thanks. Send it to me in a pm.

The reason they are saying the cards are in Spain is because it is illegal to do business with Cuba. You cannot export items from Cuba to the United States. If they said the items were in Cuba, eBay would shut the auctions down. That is why in the auction description, in addition to using my name and lying about me endorsing the cards, they also say "THESE IS A PRE 1959. PRE EMBARGOED ITEM FOUND IN SPAIN. NOT BE JUDGE BY THE EBAY RULES OF EMBARGOED ITEMS."

This, of course, is not true, which eBay will know about tomorrow. If the seller(s) could just resist the urge to run their mouths, I suspect all of this would be playing out quite differently.

For the record, I am still on the fence about the cards. I do think it's possible they are real. But there are so many red flags, I don't see how anyone could feel confident about them now. If eBay shuts the auctions down, maybe that will give Rolando a shot at buying them, which would actually be a happy ending in my opinion. I'm still rooting for them to be real, but it looks less and less likely by the minute, it seems.

-Ryan

[ElCabron]

Also, I would like clear something up about the way Cuba and, more importantly, Cubans are being made to look in this thread. Granted, almost all of it is self-inflicted. But I feel like it's important to say that on the whole, the people of Cuba are the kindest and most generous people I have ever met in any country. Most have very little, but they want to share whatever they have with you. They are extremely friendly, to each other and to visitors. The island itself is one of the most unique places on the planet. It would be a huge mistake to judge the people of Cuba based on the behavior of a handful of them in this thread. There is horrific poverty there, yet it is an island overflowing with riches much more important than money: La Gente!

-Ryan

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Also, I would like clear something up about the way Cuba and, more importantly, Cubans are being made to look in this thread. Granted, almost all of it is self-inflicted. But I feel like it's important to say that on the whole, the people of Cuba are the kindest and most generous people I have ever met in any country. Most have very little, but they want to share whatever they have with you. They are extremely friendly, to each other and to visitors. The island itself is one of the most unique places on the planet. It would be a huge mistake to judge the people of Cuba based on the behavior of a handful of them in this thread. There is horrific poverty there, yet it is an island overflowing with riches much more important than money: La Gente!

-Ryan

Well said Ryan. Well said.

Maybe a stupid question and I don't know if somebody has already brought it up, but if the cards in question were produced in Cuba, for the Cuban market, to be bought and sold by Cubans, why is "Batting Average" and "Fielding Average" printed on the back in English? Seems weird to me that two lines are in English and everything else is in Spanish. Why not print them in just Spanish or English?

[ElCabron]

Yes, this was brought up before, but it's a good question and worth addressing again. For me, this makes the cards seem more real, not less. The Romeo y Julieta boxing cards are wildly inconsistent and quirky in that same kind of way.

-Ryan

[ctownboy]

Ryan,

I understand the embargo issue with the cards. What threw me was the seller saying they and the cards were in Spain and then the very next day the seller showing themselves with Rolando and the cards together.

I didn't get how Rolando was in Cuba one day and then in Spain looking at the cards the next day. I didn't know if Rolando just hopped on a plane and flew overnight to Spain or if the cards (and the seller) was in Cuba and they were trying to skirt US law and ebay rules.

Again, unknown Cuban cards found in Spain lends mroe credence to them being real than unknown Cuban cards being in Cuba......

David

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

I like applesauce.