What's the real deal with these Cuban cards?

[Scocs]

I think Spain is the conduit through which things flow if you get my drift....

[ElCabron]

I found the link the the thread about the fake cards from 2005: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=79499

Notice the familiar pattern of attacking me personally, calling me Mr. Ryan, discussing what I've bought in the past, using several aliases and different names, etc. I suspect that it's possible the people that tried to pass off those fakes as real are the same people we're dealing with now.

One of the first red flags for me was when I look a "seller's other auctions" on ebay and saw all those fountain pens. EXACTLY what the seller of the previous fakes ("Polar") specialized in on ebay. And suddenly there's a newer eBay account with a feedback rating of only 41, who also specializes in fountain pens and items from Cuba, just like the Polar seller. And they come on Net54 and sound exactly like the previous scammers and use the same tactics such as personally attacking me.

It still doesn't mean that these are fake. It's possible for real cards to be discovered by unethical people. But the seller's current behavior probably isn't building anyone's confidence about the legitimacy of these cards. There are other red flags I will post about shortly, but anyone who reads that entire thread about the fake Polar cards will find it extremely similar to this one.

-Ryan

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

I found the link the the thread about the fake cards from 2005: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=79499

Notice the familiar pattern of attacking me personally, calling me Mr. Ryan, discussing what I've bought in the past, using several aliases and different names, etc. I suspect that it's possible the people that tried to pass off those fakes as real are the same people we're dealing with now.

One of the first red flags for me was when I look a "seller's other auctions" on ebay and saw all those fountain pens. EXACTLY what the seller of the previous fakes ("Polar") specialized in on ebay. And suddenly there's a newer eBay account with a feedback rating of only 41, who also specializes in fountain pens and items from Cuba, just like the Polar seller. And they come on Net54 and sound exactly like the previous scammers and use the same tactics such as personally attacking me.

It still doesn't mean that these are fake. It's possible for real cards to be discovered by unethical people. But the seller's current behavior probably isn't building anyone's confidence about the legitimacy of these cards. There are other red flags I will post about shortly, but anyone who reads that entire thread about the fake Polar cards will find it extremely similar to this one.

-Ryan

The fact that those Polar cards were deemed to have 1950's era paper means nothing to me. I seem to remember a certain Wagner card that we all know is fake, yet highly respected and experienced document and paper experts told those guys their card was printed in paper consistent with that produced in the early 1900's. I can go down to the local antique malls near where I live and buy old paper. or old boxes made of cardboard etc... A guy was busted in Lebanon Ohio in 2007 making fake tobacco era cards, and he was using old paper and scraps he had bought or obtained from antique dealers and book sellers. Also, sometime in the late 90's a card company located here in Ohio was producing football cards illegally. after they were busted, rumors were going around about people that worked there making 50's and 60's copies of Topps cards. Why would someone fake Cuban cards ? IDK the reasons, but it is such a small market, I'm sure whoever created them was fairly confident that he/they would recoup whatever cost was incurred while making them. the thing that someone would have to do is come up with a believable story behind the cards, and then buttress that claim with claims from other Cuban card collectors who agree that said cards are real. I doubt there is any shortage of 1950's era paper in Cuba either. They are still driving 1950's era cars. Does anyone know if any of the other Polar cards ever surfaced ? I read the checklist posted in the old thread and it's a who's who of baseball greatness

[packs]

I would think Cuban sets would be a target for card forgers (not saying these cards are the work of a forger, for clarity) because relatively little would be known about them. Therefore it would be hard to tell a fake card from a fantasy card from an authentic card from an undiscovered or scarcely seen set.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T206DK

The fact that those Polar cards were deemed to have 1950's era paper means nothing to me. I seem to remember a certain Wagner card that we all know is fake, yet highly respected and experienced document and paper experts told those guys their card was printed in paper consistent with that produced in the early 1900's. I can go down to the local antique malls near where I live and buy old paper. or old boxes made of cardboard etc... A guy was busted in Lebanon Ohio in 2007 making fake tobacco era cards, and he was using old paper and scraps he had bought or obtained from antique dealers and book sellers. Also, sometime in the late 90's a card company located here in Ohio was producing football cards illegally. after they were busted, rumors were going around about people that worked there making 50's and 60's copies of Topps cards. Why would someone fake Cuban cards ? IDK the reasons, but it is such a small market, I'm sure whoever created them was fairly confident that he/they would recoup whatever cost was incurred while making them. the thing that someone would have to do is come up with a believable story behind the cards, and then buttress that claim with claims from other Cuban card collectors who agree that said cards are real. I doubt there is any shortage of 1950's era paper in Cuba either. They are still driving 1950's era cars. Does anyone know if any of the other Polar cards ever surfaced ? I read the checklist posted in the old thread and it's a who's who of baseball greatness

I agree with you that fakes can be very, very clever. Many times there is a distraction to sort of take people in a different direction than the real alteration.

And a bit of clarification on the old Blue Eyes Wagner that the 2 African American guys are trying to sell. That card does have a real back so the paper and everything tests out fine. Then when the front is examined the story falls apart....

[Jaybird]

Here's another thing about repros (fakes). They always show less of the image than the original. They are always cropped in to avoid showing the edges or borders of the card they are copied from. In this case, they are all the same images from the Punch cards but are noticeably cropped from those images. Not definitive, just another question mark.

[ernestohur68]

check my feedback, I never sold fakes baseball cards with my old partner fountainpens. I sold the Aguilitas second series album, but never sold fakes POLAR or any other cards.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by ernestohur68

check my feedback

Yes, I did check your 41 feedbacks on your latest ebay account. While I was doing that, I took another look at your auction descriptions. I noticed you are using my name as a reference, claiming that I am saying the cards are real. NEVER, AT ANY POINT HAVE I SAID THEY ARE REAL. The most I ever said was "probably," which at this point I would have to downgrade to "It's still possible they're real." It's funny you were posting about how I would say they're real before I even had a chance to sit down and study the scans and think about the cards. You can't just use someone as a reference without asking them first. You don't get to use my credibility to boost your sales. Especially without my knowledge or consent, and implying I said something I never said.

Listen to what I say next very carefully: You have exactly one hour to remove my name from your auction descriptions. Up until this point, I've been annoyed. Now I'm starting to get angry. And although you might not get this Dr. David Banner reference, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Right now it is around 6:50 Eastern Time. If my name is not removed by 7:50 pm Eastern Time, I will be contacting ebay. Trust me when I tell you that you do not want that to happen. I don't care if you happen to miss this post or your computer crashed. You have ONE HOUR.

-Ryan

[ElCabron]

At this point it's the seller's mouth (mouths, actually) that are discrediting the cards as much or more than the cards themselves. That's really unfortunate if these are actually real? For example, Victor chose to chime in, and I guess somehow help convince us the cards are real. He chose to do this by:

(A) admitting that Victor and his father are the ones responsible for the Polar fakes. I believe he was calling himself "Michael" on the board back then. Not a great start, especially considering all the similarities between those cards and these cards, the sales method, the tactics on the board, etc.

(B) bragging about how he bought "the the biggest lot of Cuban card that I saw in my life with Punch,Billiken,etc." I happen to know that there were a number of Punch cards in that group. Why this is bad for you, Ernesto/Victor/Michael/Ana, is that it means YOU HAD ACCESS TO ORIGINAL EXAMPLES TO GET YOUR IMAGES FROM. Add a source for vintage photographic paper as well as printing and you have the exact formula for how to make fake cards and sell them as a previously unknown issue that you "discovered." I'm not even saying that's what happened here, but it's starting to look really, really bad.

(C) Yesterday, in one of "her" rants, Ana passive-aggressively made accusations about people "who use and abuse of the cubans buying cards in 20 and selling them in 2000." It seemed like "she" was directing these comments at me, since there is a long history of this group telling lies making up stories about me. That's another issue that we don't need to get into right now. Anyway, I asked if "she" was saying that "she" paid $20. A few posts later "she" said "Ryan i am cuban, not american like you and i paid good half of the price that i put in auction." I took this to be another passive-aggressive jab at how the Americans pay so little and take advantage of the Cubans, while Cubans like Ernesto/Ana/Victor/Michael are stand up people pay big money for cards, so as not to take advantage of anyone. Well, the total starting price for the 11 cards on ebay is $2,800. This means he/she/they paid $1,400 for them. The only problem with this is that while they have previously said the cards turned up in Spain, Ernesto told me on the phone that he found them in a house in Cuba. So I guess he "discovered" them in a house in Cuba, but that house just happened to be filled with extremely knowledgeable individuals that knew how much to ask for these cards. Which is strange, because in that scenario, that is usually when the paying $20 for a $2,000 item happens. Yes, Cuban on Cuban shenanigans! But instead, I guess he/she/they paid $1,400 to this lucky household just because that's how they roll. Takin' care of their peeps and whatnot. If this find was legit and came from a house in Cuba, the previous owners would have had no idea what the cards were or how much they could be worth. $1,400 is an INSANE amount of money for a household in Cuba. This story just isn't adding up.

I still have more to say, but I'm going to take a break for a bit. What an annoying timesuck.

-Ryan