Horizontal t206's

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by DerekMichael

David James,



You just blew my mind ...

Wow, you're easy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wazoo]

Or you could think of Dunn catching a fly ball, bending backwards a little. I mean, the position of the glove would probably not be correct, but maybe that was the way he caught fly balls?

[Bpm0014]

I believe it to be definitely horizontal. Almost like he is sprinting in and catching a short fly ball or pop up. He is using two hands because all of the players at that time had to use two hands. The gloves back then didnt have the baskets or webs that they do today. Thus, he is running in and diving to catch a short fly ball or pop up. I think. Very interesting!

[veloce]

Looks vertical to me. It would make sense that the original picture would have him catching a pop up since Dunn's a pitcher and he's probably not diving for many fly balls.

As for the arm injury idea... I doubt he could stretch out like that if he couldn't lift his arm over his head.

Edit: Actually I guess he was no longer pitching in those years... still an infielder is more likely to be catching pop ups.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by veloce

Edit: Actually I guess he was no longer pitching in those years... still an infielder is more likely to be catching pop ups.

Although he mostly played the infield, he did play the outfield in the 1902 & 1904 (his last) seasons.

[veloce]

Presumably the original picture would date to his active days with Baltimore to be relatively current with the set. Of course, I don't know what position he played those years.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Although he mostly played the infield, he did play the outfield in the 1902 & 1904 (his last) seasons.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by wazoo

the position of the glove would probably not be correct

Not sure the artists always got glove positioning correct. Look at Sleepy Bill Burns with his glove on the wrong hand

The card does look cool as a horizontal but it always has been and always will be a vertical until someone finds the original photo and proves otherwise.

[CW]

When I read this thread this afternoon during lunch, I was in the horizontal camp. Now, after Andy reiterated about the odd tilt effect that the T206 artists sometimes employed, and after 10 minutes of playing around with photoshop, I can conclude that the original photo was most likely, almost definitely, a vertical shot of Jack Dunn getting ready to make a basket catch. The key was getting rid of the tilt effect, as shown in the Chief Bender card by Andy.

All I did was isolate Dunn from his T206 card, then I rotated Dunn clockwise maybe 20-40 degrees until his belt was basically horizontal (or at least until it looked normal) -- this removed the tilt. Due to the cropping of the T206 image, I had to (crudely) draw in a little bit of pants below Dunn's belt in the lower left, and also a bit of Dunn's elbow.

Once I had this image, I could view it both vertically and horizontally, and I think the the image looks MUCH more natural in the vertical position, as if Jack is getting ready to lower his hands to make a basket catch, as others have mentioned previously. When viewed as a horizontal, it just doesn't look right, and the arms simply don't look like he's naturally diving.

The first image with black background is original from the card, the 2nd image is vertical without the tilt, and for the 3rd image I simply rotated the 2nd image 90 degrees.

[DerekMichael]

net54 is so cool

[wazoo]

I'm convinced.

[freakhappy]

Good work, Chuck...looks convincing!

In my first post, I stated that if it was intended to be a vertical pose, it was poorly done...which it looks to be the case after Chuck's manipulations.

I believe that because of the poorly designed outlook of the card, making it hard to tell either way and without research, it still looks like it could be a horizontal pose

Here are a few points that make it believable:

-David had some good input, stating that Dunn could not extend his left elbow above his neck (I believe), so even if the position looked vertical, it could have easily been skewed because of his inability to extend further.
-The diagonal pose made pretty much everyone somewhat unsure because of the angle
-The solid green background does not signify whether it was vertical or horizontal

I was ready to reply and still be somewhat in the middle on this until I remembered the T206 below...it is the exact same pose, but centered...with a horizon. It seems that Dunn is in fact, supposed to be considered in a vertical pose.

Good job investigating until we found some solid ground to go on

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by wazoo

Or you could think of Dunn catching a fly ball, bending backwards a little. I mean, the position of the glove would probably not be correct, but maybe that was the way he caught fly balls?

Seems like his glove position is wrong for a fly ball. The ball would hit the heel and then hit him in the face. Not that I know from experience ......

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

Seems like his glove position is wrong for a fly ball.

Exactly. I spent a lot of time looking at Google images.

If you Google images of "catching fly ball" they all have one thing in common - the glove faces out (away from their body), not as the Dunn card shows where the glove is faacing in. That would not be the correct position to catch a fly ball.

However, if you Google images of "diving for catch" it shows images of players with the glove facing up or down, so he could definitley be diving for a catch, glove facing up.

[bn2cardz]

It seems like everyone wants to overlook the possibility of it being a diagonal representation of the original picture.

I have been wondering if there has been a single picture of a diving catch prior to the web being put on the glove? I haven't seen one (that is not saying much as I am young and don't collect vintage photos). I have seen posed images on Old Judge, but those have always seemed more of sliding for a fast ground ball. Too me it seems that without the web of the glove a dive for a ball would not be the smarter move as I would assume the impact of the ground would knock the ball loose more times than not. Especially if you aren't going to brace for the fall as you would have to assume Dunn is not doing if you want to believe this is horizontal.

Again. I am not saying they didn't dive but I haven't seen evidence that they did.

[slipk1068]

Fly ball, He is setting up to make a basket catch. With soft hands, he is going to lower them and give with the ball. In the old days, basket catches were WAY more popular than they are today. This has always been my opinion.

[ullmandds]

i thought the debate was horizontal vs vertical? I wouldn't rule out a "diagonal" portrayal...but I still believe it is meant to be vertical and I think slipk1068's description is spot on.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i thought the debate was horizontal vs vertical? I wouldn't rule out a "diagonal" portrayal...but I still believe it is meant to be vertical and I think slipk1068's description is spot on.

Right but the diagonal portrayal still would help determine if it was originally a vertical picture that was tilted slightly to fit the confines of the space or was it a horizontal picture to start with.

I still have not seen a single reason this should be horizontal other than "I like it that way". Which is fine if you want to display it that way, but it definitely won't sway any opinions. I am merely making a point as to why I believe it was vertical to start with by going beyond the "I like it that way" approach.

I like the effort made thus far to find pictures used for t206 cards that Scott has displayed on t206themonster.com website. Until I found the Bender on his site I wouldn't have even thought of the tilt option. I hope he has the oppurtunity to add this Dunn picture soon.

Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.



EDIT: Sorry I was posting my reply at the same time you decided to bow out of this conversation. It was not meant to pull you back in.