Interesting email I have not seen

[MBMiller25]

Very disturbing indeed. The bump-up game has become a lucrative business in itself (this is not news) but this organized event, in my opinion, truly undermines the integrity of third party grading.

This email really confirms what we all know if going on anyway. It's a shame that we as collectors continue to be slaves to a plastic holder with a name on top and take it up the ass by these guys with a smile on our face. There service SUCKS! Truly it sucks! There owner is an ego maniac that has zero problem standing in front of a room full of PSA faithful and without a hint of doubt proclaims "he was one of the three present when the now famous trimmed Wagner was graded and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that card was not trimmed", yet there seems to be zero backlash when it goes public that the card is indeed trimmed! This is the only business in the world that I can think of where you get in the ass and get kicked in the balls time and time again as collectors, and we gladly come back with a smile on our face. Unreal!


And before anyone goes off on me, I am speaking squarely to myself with the statement above.

[Runscott]

I think that Dave Thorn has very eloquently documented some of PSA's unethical habits. At least now the collectors who wear blinders can take them off and put on sunglasses instead.

I do not think most of us in Dave's position would have elected to document, in email, said PSA behavior, but it might have made financial sense for him, letting his customers officially know what they should already have known.

I wonder how PSA feels about the email?

[bn2cardz]

This email only states what has been on the Small Traditions website under the "Cosign" tab.

http://www.smalltraditions.com/consignwithus.aspx

Explain It To Me: How Is This Possible?

You send us your treasured $2,000 Mickey Mantle rookie card, which you think looks just about perfect. We consult over the phone and discuss the various stages and challenges to the grading process, but we agree that your Mantle RC could possibly grade as high as NM 7, and so we pay $25 to FedEx to securely ship it to PSA to undergo an initial $35 round of grading. PSA returns the card, but it’s only been graded PSA 6 EX-MT. We think the card has been under-graded, so we pay FedEx another $25 to send it back to PSA to undergo a $35 review. PSA returns the card, and it’s now graded PSA 6.5 EX-MT+, which is more than a $1000 difference over a regular PSA 6 EX-MT, but we still think the card should be a PSA 7 NM, and so we take the card with us to the PSA Dealer Invitational event in Las Vegas and debate its NM 7 merits with a PSA grader in person. The PSA grader agrees, PSA “reslabs” the card as a PSA 7 NM—a $5,000 difference over a PSA 6 EX-MT—and we then sell it in our next auction. The final bid is $12,000. Two weeks later, we send you a check for $12,000, and we keep the 15% buyers premium, which we added to the final bid, and which covers our grading and other expenses (like this website) and provides for a modest profit.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

This email only states what has been on the Small Traditions website under the "Cosign" tab.

http://www.smalltraditions.com/consignwithus.aspx

LOL! The other way of looking at this is if I'm a bidder then I'm paying good money for a card that is likely overgraded. So thanks for pointing this out. This auction house will never get a dime of my business and from this point on the emails I receive from this outfit will go straight into my spam folder.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

LOL! The other way of looking at this is if I'm a bidder then I'm paying good money for a card that is likely overgraded. So thanks for pointing this out. This auction house will never get a dime of my business and from this point on the emails I receive from this outfit will go straight into my spam folder.

You can certainly avoid this company if you want, but why would you assume they are the only ones getting this sweet deal? There are much bigger auction houses and dealers out there. Is there any reason we shouldn't assume other companies are getting the same sort of treatment from PSA? These other companies just aren't telling you about it in their advertising!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

You can certainly avoid this company if you want, but why would you assume they are the only ones getting this sweet deal? There are much bigger auction houses and dealers out there. Is there any reason we shouldn't assume other companies are getting the same sort of treatment from PSA? These other companies just aren't telling you about it in their advertising!

I don't recall claiming these are the only ones getting preferential treatment but I agree with you that it is very likely a widespread problem and if you can find a list of the attendees I will certainly follow suit by avoiding those dealers as well.

What I find interesting is that historically PSA advertises that the graders never know who the submitters are. Here's a quote from their website regarding the PSA grading process:

The submissions are now assigned a generic order number, removing the identifying information from the order – thus removing the potential for bias.

http://www.psacard.com/Services/PSAGradingProcess/

Also, if you read this article about the Cobb-Edwards Honus Wagner, this was supposedly the reason PSA would not grade their card:

As a matter of policy, PSA will not examine material in the presence of its owner. Cobb and Edwards refused to allow their card to be examined without their being present. Orlando told them they could fly out with their card, "drop it off and pick it up within an hour or two."

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_53.html

This whole event is extremely troublesome in my opinion and is a slap in the face of sports hobbyists.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Not shocked about this and personally don't think there is a problem with allowing a collector to talk to a grader. The problem is that the access is given only to big money clients.

[Deertick]

It won't be long before the first 10.5 grade will be awarded.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I think that Dave Thorn has very eloquently documented some of PSA's unethical habits. At least now the collectors who wear blinders can take them off and put on sunglasses instead.

I do not think most of us in Dave's position would have elected to document, in email, said PSA behavior, but it might have made financial sense for him, letting his customers officially know what they should already have known.

I wonder how PSA feels about the email?

Interesting to read this quote from over 6 years ago. Regarding the part highlighted in bold, it's both funny and sad that collectors' blinders are more firmly connected than ever, with PSA submissions at an all-time high. You can't say they weren't warned...

Wishful thinking and greed continue to dominate the consumer side of this hobby, while fraud and deception continues to run rampant in Newport Beach.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by MBMiller25

This email really confirms what we all know if going on anyway. It's a shame that we as collectors continue to be slaves to a plastic holder with a name on top and take it up the ass by these guys with a smile on our face. There service SUCKS! Truly it sucks! There owner is an ego maniac that has zero problem standing in front of a room full of PSA faithful and without a hint of doubt proclaims "he was one of the three present when the now famous trimmed Wagner was graded and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that card was not trimmed", yet there seems to be zero backlash when it goes public that the card is indeed trimmed! This is the only business in the world that I can think of where you get in the ass and get kicked in the balls time and time again as collectors, and we gladly come back with a smile on our face. Unreal!


And before anyone goes off on me, I am speaking squarely to myself with the statement above.

Matt,

I think part of the problem is that many collectors play the "crack-out and bump-up game" themselves. I know one collector who has several highly ranked mid-60's PSA registry sets and about 1/3 of the PSA 9s were once 8's.

But you bring up a great point - which is really even more alarming. The bigger problem proven by myself and others is that PSA either can't detect doctored cards or intentionally allows doctored cards to be slabbed. It would be grossly naive to think the T206 Wagner was the only doctored card that originated from Bill Mastro that was slabbed by PSA.

And I agree with you again - why people tolerate these questionable business practices defies all common sense and reasoning.