Renowned Photo Auctioneer Henry Yee to Partner with Rogers Photo Archive

[Leon]

I am honored to help announce this new partnership of Henry Yee and Rogers Photo Archive. Both John and Henry are hobby friends and I certainly wish them the best. It's an exciting time in the photo hobby.

[prewarsports]

I love Henry and have nothing but good things to say about him and wish him the the absolute best of luck in ANYTHING he does. As for the author of the press release, interesting timing to announce a partnership that has existed for over six months and pretty classless but that is just my opinion.

Best of luck to Henry, he is a hobby friend and a great guy!

[slidekellyslide]

Heh...great, now I'll pay three times as much as I was paying for my photos from John Rogers.

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

As for the author of the press release, interesting timing to announce a partnership that has existed for over six months and pretty classless but that is just my opinion.

I'm a bit lost on this part. Who is the author of the press release (not seeing a byline) and why is he classless to announce it 6 months later?

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Griffins

I'm a bit lost on this part. Who is the author of the press release (not seeing a byline) and why is he classless to announce it 6 months later?

Because the author indirectly references Rhys's classification system

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Because the author indirectly references Rhys's classification system

Not so much indirectly as straight forward calling Rhys' system "clearly less accurate and far inferior." While the pros and cons of any system(s) are debatable, it's a little cheesey to come out with these comments right as Rhys' auction is about to go off.
For the record, I like parts of each system and have nothing negative to say about Henry, Rhys, or Rogers. I have had a couple dealings with each and have never had a problem or issue.
I wish them all well in their individual ventures.

[aaroncc]

I think the quotes in the article were harsh. The so-called revolutionary system.. To me thats pretty direct and not necessary. I agree the systems have flaws but to argue my system is better because I can guess closer to the real date is really not a strong point.

[Hankphenom]

Wishing Henry and John all the best. For lovers of vintage photos, it's exciting to imagine what might be coming out of these archives.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Because the author indirectly references Rhys's classification system

Ah, I was wondering that also until I read the press release further. I prefer the system Rhys uses myself to be honest. It's actually more accurate if you understand photos and know the type classification system is riddled with holes, and plenty of leaps in faith familiar in the game used and autograph categories.

The only advantage of the type system is easier monetization of many of those leaps of faith, and something else PSA can charge you for.

[HRBAKER]

the type classification system is riddled with holes, and plenty of leaps in faith familiar in the game used and autograph categories.


Amen, and amen.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Ah, I was wondering that also until I read the press release further. I prefer the system Rhys uses myself to be honest. It's actually more accurate if you understand photos and know the type classification system is riddled with holes, and plenty of leaps in faith familiar in the game used and autograph categories.

The only advantage of the type system is easier monetization of many of those leaps of faith, and something else PSA can charge you for.

It is very interesting how this thread went after the second post. My simple question is to EVERYONE/ ANYONE : how is the other system more accurate than the type system? I see no benefit AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. Someone who understands photos please eplain this to me. Please please please

[prewarsports]

I will say this really quick as I was not going to post again but I will just to specify one thing. People are entitled to their own opinions and I respect that. Had I not been insulted publicly I would have said nothing AT ALL.

FIRST, the "Type" system is copyrighted. If I could have gotten a written permission to freely use it, I would have just used it and made extra comments about each photo where I felt it needed clarification. This was not possible so thats that!

SECOND, My system (which took years to develop after looking at over 1 million photos) is very comprehensive and brings something new to the hobby and I will tell you why. Should photos that are 2 years old be worth more than those made 5 years after? YES! Problem is, unless you have a photo with a paper caption and/or a date stamp (that is not FAKED) you only have the paper stock and a news service stamp to go off of. Back stamps were used for a number of years, sometimes as much as 10-15 years in some cases. Right now if ALL you have is a company stamp on the back that was used during the right year and nothing else, its a type 1. What is happening in the hobby, and I have seen it hundreds upon hundreds of times, is that people who have a photo that would otherwise be a "Type 2" because it is say 5 years after the original but the company stamp is the same one as would have been used to make it a "Type 1" are ripping off paper labels and destroying damning evidence while keeping good evidence to pass off a photo as a "type 1" and NOBODY (not me, not Henry NOBODY) can tell.


Example, lets say you have a 1939 Lou Gehrig Luckiest man Speech Photo. The "Acme" or "UP" label is the same one as used in 1939, but the back has a date stamp of 1944 and a paper caption that talks about "Five years ago on this date Gehrig makes his famous speech". With the label and date intact its a "Type 2" and worth maybe 100-200 bucks. Destroy the label and get rid of the date somehow and you now have a "Type 1" that is worth 1000+ bucks. In a hobby where fraud is the norm, THIS IS HAPPENING and it is happening A LOT!

My system is designed to do 2 things and otherwise it is the same as the "Type" system. Deter fraud, and more accurately (in my opinion) distinguish between "Type 2-4" photos. Thats it. End of Story. It is not "Revolutionary" it just is a step (in my opinion) to clarifying a few loopholes that I discovered as a COLLECTOR of photography and a step to try (futile as it may be) to clean up some of the fraud in the industry that I love.

In a perfect world the type system is great. Problem is, its not a perfect World and the collectibles arena is filled with dirty people.






Last thing. I applaud Marshall Fogel and Henry Yee for pioneering this industry. I am walking in their footsteps and I am aware of that and respect and admire both men more than any of you will probably ever know. If not for them and their book, I am not where I am today and I cant thank them enough. I AM NOT saying my system is "better" just that I believe it is more comprehensive and deters fraud, thats it. I am not insulting anyone, I took a system that they created because of a need in the hobby and tweaked it just a tiny bit.

I wish Henry all the luck in the World with his new venture and I hope it brings him happiness in his life, he deserves it as he is a great guy and someone I consider to be a good friend. I would never say anything bad about him and I know that he personally would say the same about me. There is plenty of room for more than one seller of vintage photos and you will NEVER see me take shots at him or anything he does for the betterment of my own company and I will do my best (as I have already spoken to him about this over the phone personally) to stagger my auctions away from him to not compete and I will never take a shot at him, PSA/DNA or anything. I would encourage anyone and everyone to do as much business with HIM as possible.



If anyone wishes to discuss anything with me and my "vastly inferior, fly by night, needless, archaic, system" please e mail me and I will give you my personal number to call and discuss it.

Rhys

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I will say this really quick as I was not going to post again but I will just to specify one thing. People are entitled to their own opinions and I respect that. Had I not been insulted publicly I would have said nothing AT ALL.

FIRST, the "Type" system is copyrighted. If I could have gotten a written permission to freely use it, I would have just used it and made extra comments about each photo where I felt it needed clarification. This was not possible so thats that!

SECOND, My system (which took years to develop after looking at over 1 million photos) is very comprehensive and brings something new to the hobby and I will tell you why. Should photos that are 2 years old be worth more than those made 5 years after? YES! Problem is, unless you have a photo with a paper caption and/or a date stamp (that is not FAKED) you only have the paper stock and a news service stamp to go off of. Back stamps were used for a number of years, sometimes as much as 10-15 years in some cases. Right now if ALL you have is a company stamp on the back that was used during the right year and nothing else, its a type 1. What is happening in the hobby, and I have seen it hundreds upon hundreds of times, is that people who have a photo that would otherwise be a "Type 2" because it is say 5 years after the original but the company stamp is the same one as would have been used to make it a "Type 1" are ripping off paper labels and destroying damning evidence while keeping good evidence to pass off a photo as a "type 1" and NOBODY (not me, not Henry NOBODY) can tell.


Example, lets say you have a 1939 Lou Gehrig Luckiest man Speech Photo. The "Acme" or "UP" label is the same one as used in 1939, but the back has a date stamp of 1944 and a paper caption that talks about "Five years ago on this date Gehrig makes his famous speech". With the label and date intact its a "Type 2" and worth maybe 100-200 bucks. Destroy the label and get rid of the date somehow and you now have a "Type 1" that is worth 1000+ bucks. In a hobby where fraud is the norm, THIS IS HAPPENING and it is happening A LOT!

My system is designed to do 2 things and otherwise it is the same as the "Type" system. Deter fraud, and more accurately (in my opinion) distinguish between "Type 2-4" photos. Thats it. End of Story. It is not "Revolutionary" it just is a step (in my opinion) to clarifying a few loopholes that I discovered as a COLLECTOR of photography and a step to try (futile as it may be) to clean up some of the fraud in the industry that I love.

In a perfect world the type system is great. Problem is, its not a perfect World and the collectibles arena is filled with dirty people.






Last thing. I applaud Marshall Fogel and Henry Yee for pioneering this industry. I am walking in their footsteps and I am aware of that and respect and admire both men more than any of you will probably ever know. If not for them and their book, I am not where I am today and I cant thank them enough. I AM NOT saying my system is "better" just that I believe it is more comprehensive and deters fraud, thats it. I am not insulting anyone, I took a system that they created because of a need in the hobby and tweaked it just a tiny bit.

I wish Henry all the luck in the World with his new venture and I hope it brings him happiness in his life, he deserves it as he is a great guy and someone I consider to be a good friend. I would never say anything bad about him and I know that he personally would say the same about me. There is plenty of room for more than one seller of vintage photos and you will NEVER see me take shots at him or anything he does for the betterment of my own company and I will do my best (as I have already spoken to him about this over the phone personally) to stagger my auctions away from him to not compete and I will never take a shot at him, PSA/DNA or anything. I would encourage anyone and everyone to do as much business with HIM as possible.



If anyone wishes to discuss anything with me and my "vastly inferior, fly by night, needless, archaic, system" please e mail me and I will give you my personal number to call and discuss it.

Rhys

Rhys, How is the type 2-4 any different? You do the same thing using more steps. All the type system photos are dated so your vintage 1-3 does nothing but add more classifications. That goes for type 3s too...dated. So the wire vintage vs the other is also creating another classification. Am i wrong here? please help me understand. Also, it is not more comprehensive to make a range of a type 1 bigger at all. The example in the article was good but here are actually countless better.
Also..what does this even mean? "In a perfect world the type system is great. Problem is, its not a perfect World and the collectibles arena is filled with dirty people." Are you saying yours is a perfect system in a non perfect world?? I mean.. The grading in condition is promoting fraud more than anything. You have a buck weaver as a 5/5. What stops someone from trimming a full size image down to get this high grade? Also, what stops someone from tearing off a caption six or seven years later to get your type 1 classification. Answer.. Nothing. Fraud exists in cards, autos, game used, photos ect. I see nothing here that makes it any less.
When a system is copied(with a few things changed to avoid copyright)and calls itself more comprehensive when it is not.. It is a problem imo. As you said, we are all entitled to our opinion but man... I never saw Henry or PSA go on your marketing thread and say anything about copying or classless. I mean.. You compare the type system within each definition of the one on your site. You basically copied it and then called yours more thorough and comprehensive with the only real change being the 2 to 5 years. Then when this release copes out...you get upset and throw classless around? Come on Rhys ..I'm just saying. You seem like a good guy from the convos we have had and very knowledgeable and I wish you the best. However, I do not agree that your system is at all tweaked in a positive way or done in a positive manner. As you know, that didn't stop me from bidding and have wished you the best in your auction from day 1. I, will also open an invitation if you or anyone wants to talk more about this subject. Unfortunately, this thread went off the track at post 2. Good luck to Henry and Rodgers. Henry will add a lot to that group. I am always excited to see fresh images introduced the hobby. Ps: sorry for run-ons..spelling errors ect.. I am tired and this iPad sucks. Peace

[Runscott]

...

[prewarsports]

I hear ya Ben. People can disagree. No I am in no way saying my system is perfect and I am pretty sure you know that, all I meant was that in a perfect world we wouldn't need 3rd party graders to tell us if a card has been altered, an autograph has been forged etc. But since we live in an imperfect world we need to try and prevent as much fraud as possible and all I am trying to do (whether you agree or disagree) is get rid of some of that.

I have three classes "Vintage 1-3" and that is it, each based on how old the photo is. I had to come up with SOMETHING since I couldn't use the PSA system so I came up with the system that I personally like better as a collector. I dont expect everyone to like it, and you dont have to endorse it or use it and thats fine. I just hope everyone, including you can see what I am trying to do to make this hobby more positive for all involved.

One more FYI, I am just responding to someone who publicly attacked my credibility and threw it out for the world to see. He made statements which are flat out not true, and made other statements that I could completely discredit in about 2 seconds. It was NOT cool and completely a series of low blows to try and hit me 4 days before my auction ends because he views us as competition. I WOULD NEVER do anything like that for any reason, but since it was done to me I am simply trying to say a few words and take the high road. Had the article been in good taste, I would have simply gone on and said, "Best of luck" and the story is over. Please keep this in mind when reading any of my three posts in this thread and imagine what you would do if someone lied about you, your business and your integrity on a public forum in the name of "Business".

I wont post anymore on this thread and I never intended to hijack it, but when someone lies and calls you out, you are entitled to at least say a few words, at least in my opinion.

Best of luck to Henry Yee on his new venture. I will be bidding and endorsing it to all I know!

Rhys

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Unfortunately, this thread went off the track at post 2. Good luck to Henry and Rodgers. Henry will add a lot to that group. I am always excited to see fresh images introduced the hobby. Ps: sorry for run-ons..spelling errors ect.. I am tired and this iPad sucks. Peace

Ben, it got off track at Post 1. That news release is blatantly unprofessional. I'm surprised Henry allowed it, based on all the praise he has received on this board.

You know my thoughts regarding the type system, PSA's photo slabbing, and supposed 'industry standards' with regard to describing photos, etc. As we discussed, most of use who were knowledgeable vintage photo collectors prior to this system's creation, didn't need it in order to collect 'safely', and many of us (me, at least) thought/think it flawed and felt that it introduced fraud opportunities that didn't exist prior to its inception, but you and I disagree on that, and that's fine. But it's here and all the newer collectors expect photos to have a 'Type' designation. Describing something as 'Original' isn't enough for them, and they might even figure you are hiding something if you don't say 'Type x'. Still, I don't personally use it. Rhys, on the other hand, has explained why he feels that something had to be done. I disagree with him on that point, but he's running a new, large photo auction, and he's thinking about this from a different perspective.

One more point regarding 'type' designations: just as with the autograph TPAs situation, photo type systems were not created for me or for any other knowledgeable collector, but I agree with you that they ARE beneficial for their intended market - I just think that most of the people in that market are better off collecting something else. If you quit using some of your brainpower because you are letting PSA do your thinking for you, then you are asking for trouble. I will also admit that if I were ever to view a hyee auction, and was looking for original photos, it would make things easier for me to be able to search for 'Type I', then focus more by looking for alterations, correctness of stamping, image quality - basically, anything I would have looked for BEFORE the type system was created. But it would make things quicker. Of course, if he put 'original' in the subject line, for me personally, it would accomplish the same thing.

I will use the same method when viewing RMY auction items. Taking as an example John Roger's 1932-35 'Ruth Shot' photo that he uses to attack Rhys' credibility, SO WHAT? As a knowledgeable collector, I will look at the photo and USE MY BRAIN to make my own decisions. If I'm buying stuff based totally on a 'designator' (either PSA's or Rhys'), and spending thousands of dollars, then I am an idiot. John has lost his mind if he really expects people to make decisions that way. At the very least, he's insulting the intelligence of his market.

[David R]

Shouldn't this thread be over on the memorabilia side?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by David R

Shouldn't this thread be over on the memorabilia side?

No

[nolemmings]

Ben, it got off track at Post 1. That news release is blatantly unprofessional. I'm surprised Henry allowed it, based on all the praise he has received on this board.

Exactly. As noted, utterly classless.

[HRBAKER]

I agree the systems have flaws but to argue my system is better because I can guess closer to the real date is really not a strong point.

My thoughts as well.
Well stated.

At the end of the day these systems whether applied to cards or autographs or photographs are not so much about accuracy but liquidity IMO.