Chicago Union Giants Negro Postcard

[Runscott]

They were one of the major black semi-pro teams out of Chicago during this period - nowhere near the best, but still decent.

The card is more than scarce - it's probably unique. Given that, I'm not surprised it passed $2K. If I had been able to i.d. a couple of players in the card as guys I'm looking for better photos of, I would have gone $2K (and still lost )

[mannybb24]

Its a fantastic and possibly unique postcard and that is why I took a run at it.
Yes, that is me with the feedback of 455, driving up the price My intentions was to snipe it before I went to bed but thought I'd see where the highest bid topped off before doing so but I just kept getting outbid.
I told myself when I first noticed it up for bids that I wasn't going any more than 2k on it since we do have Hake's next week and REA around the corner and many other holes to fill in my collection but to add something like this PC would've been pretty sweet.

Once I got it up to $2150, I decided to hang her up and go to bed without a snipe thinking the highest bidder had a max. bid of 3k or so.
I thought the price was right, compare that one to the one that was in Hake's a few auctions ago, another CUG RPPC:

http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=204&ItemNo=107036

That's a pretty nice postcard as well (Randolph is about 20 minutes away from my house) but at 3.6k, I'd rather have the one on EBay.

Scott, you are right, that is Will Horn standing next to Jack Johnson. I'm pretty sure Horn is wearing a Leland Giants uniform so you can make an educated guess that he was probably on loan the day they took this picture.

As far as not having any HOF players pictured, who cares. I think too many people get caught up with all this HOF BS, I don't need some committee to tell me who I can and can not collect, especially when it comes to black and latin baseball.

Sorry for the long post
Take it easy people
Steve

[JeremyW]

A board member on the card side has a postcard that is very similar to this Ebay PC. It appears to be taken the same day only the players are shifted around. If you Google "collectors quest negro league postcard" it will be at the top of the search. Sorry- I don't know how to link it. It appears to be dated 1911 on the back, but I'm not certain. Very cool postcards.

[mannybb24]

http://www.collectorsquest.com/colle...eague-postcard

[bcbgcbrcb]

For that kind of money, I would still like to see a Bruce Petway, Charles Grant, Home Run Johnson, Spot Poles, etc. Does not have to be a HOF'er but at least one really significant player. It's not my money though, people can spend their own money on whatever they like.

[bbpostcards]

Speaking of Petway et al., the players here are thought to be, left to right, Bill Gatewood; Hurley McNair; Dick Whitworth; Pete Hill; Bruce Petway; Harry Bauchman; Walter Ball; Fred Hutchinson; Pete Duncan; Louis Santop (behind Duncan); Rube Foster; Horace Jenkins; Frank Wickware; Bill Francis; Jesse Barber. The hotel they are standing in front of still stands. Note the equipment bag and cases. For a better look at a sharper image and a little history about the postcard, see http://www.sportingoregon.com/p56492...61da#h432a61da

[mannybb24]

Unfortunately Phil, you can not find a photo or postcard with any of those guys on them for less than 5k now days so for little guys like myself that don't get caught up with "names", finding items like this postcard are true diamonds in the rough.

[mannybb24]

Thanks Peter, better luck next time I guess.
I look at it this way, by not winning the CUG postcard, I'll take the cash and put it towards Hake's.........it's all good, no sweat off my back.

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Its a fantastic and possibly unique postcard and that is why I took a run at it.
Yes, that is me with the feedback of 455, driving up the price My intentions was to snipe it before I went to bed but thought I'd see where the highest bid topped off before doing so but I just kept getting outbid.

Steve

Well you gave it a good shot.

I don't collect Negro League items but I sure as heck collect vintage stuff that is cool and this card sure was that. My collecting goal is to have one card of each HOFer so I dug in and did some research to see if Pop Lloyd or any other early ones were in there. Many of you guys could probably tell from just a quick scan of the card!

In doing my research I got a much better appreciation on the rarity of the card and why it was so special. As I just said to my wife - I think the guys who collect negro league stuff must think of these postcards as amazing little glimpses into a world that was not chronicled or captured nearly as much as MLB - it's part of America's history as well as bb history and is just interesting.

Anyway - good stuff. sorry you didn't win it Steve.

peter

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Scott, you are right, that is Will Horn standing next to Jack Johnson. I'm pretty sure Horn is wearing a Leland Giants uniform so you can make an educated guess that he was probably on loan the day they took this picture
.....

Steve

Steve, do you feel sure that is Topeka Jack Johnson? I think it does look similar to the guy labeled 'Chappie' Johnson and then later 'Topeka' Jack Johnson in the 1905 Union Giants postcard, but I never got how anyone was so certain that one was Jack Johnson. He was basically a Kansas City guy and tied closely to business in both the Kansas and Missouri cities, and I haven't seen any evidence that he played anywhere else.

If this really is him, then it's the best photo we have of 'Topeka Jack' Johnson.

Edited to add: ...and also of Will Horn, and possibly Joe Greene as well. That's arguably best-existing-photos of three better-than-average black players, and we haven't even i.d'd the rest of the team yet.

[mannybb24]

Scott
I never feel good about my id's.
I remembered Agate Type did an article/blog about Topeka Jack and a Union Giants photo awhile back so I went back to find it.
After comparing the two photos they had plus seamheads database shows another headshot of what they identify as Johnson, I came to conclusion in my mind that it was him.
Is it 100% definitely him? I wish I can say for certain but I can't but if this is really the 1907 team, there's a really good chance that it is him.

By the way, the guy with the mustache is George Hopkins.

Steve

[Runscott]

Gary simply stated that Topeka Jack was in the 1905 photo - he didn't explain his reasoning. I asked him a year or so back if he had any clear images of Johnson, and the ones on his website were it.

Also, the images of Johnson with the KC,KS Giants aren't clear enough to use as i.d.'s. I even looked up photos of the fight between Jack Johnson and 'Topeka' Jack Johnson at Leavenworth prison, and those were inconclusive as well.

As much as 'Topeka' Jack contributed to 'The Freeman', you'd think there would be a photo of him in one of the issues.

[Runscott]

Here is the 'Johnson' from the 1907-ish postcard, next to the two images from the 1905 Chi Union Giants that Gary i.d.'s as Topeka Jack. I'm not seeing a match.

I will do some research and revisit this - it's going to take microfiche research in a few small-town midwest libraries, but it's fairly easy to nail down this stuff if you have the time and patience.

[Runscott]

Just for grins, here are the only two photos I know of, from November 25, 1920, when Jack Johnson boxed two matches in Leavenworth prison. I believe the first photo shows him fighting 'Topeka Jack' Johnson, with his other opponent (Frank Owens) standing to the right. The photo to the right shows him with Owens as well. But I could have Topeka Jack and Owen switched Johnson fought Owens first, and beat him up badly, so it doesn't make sense that he would be standing around for the other fight. According to the papers, Owens weighed 227 pounds, and Topeka Jack Johnson weighed 210.

(This occurred Thanksgiving Day, 1920, whereas the postcard images were taken 13 years earlier).

Topeka Jack Johnson, whose name, wrote Mark Ribowsky in "A Complete History of the Negro Leagues, 1884 to 1955," "wasn't Jack Johnson at all until he stole it from the mountainous black prizefighter who won the heavyweight title on the day after Christmas in 1908."

Topeka Jack was a prizefighter, too, albeit one of limited success in the ring. The two Johnsons also knew each other, as Topeka Jack was described by the Leavenworth Times in a Nov. 25, 1920, story as a former sparring partner of the champ.

[baseballart]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Its a fantastic and possibly unique postcard and that is why I took a run at it.
...

As far as not having any HOF players pictured, who cares. I think too many people get caught up with all this HOF BS, I don't need some committee to tell me who I can and can not collect, especially when it comes to black and latin baseball.

Sorry for the long post
Take it easy people
Steve

Steve

I agree with you on the postcard. For me, I really enjoy finding postcards of local minor league teams and players, and prefer collecting those to major league stars.

However, I must admit my jaw dropped when the woman brought in the panorama photos to the 2007 SABR meeting I was attending here in Vancouver, including the famous $30K one of the Chicago American Giants, with all the hall of famers

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...2012/1175.html