The T206 "Exclusive 12" of the 460-Only series

[CMIZ5290]

Ted- interesting info, I have Geyer in a PSA 6 (SCap fact 42) is there a premium on value? Thanks.....

[cfc1909]

Ted

this is from your post #79 in this thread

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=162935

The 350/460 series DRUM cards and the 350/460 AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) cards were both printed on same
pre-printed sheets of 37 - T206 subjects. Three of these subjects (Conroy....Mullin....Stahl) of these 37 have yet to be confirmed with DRUM backs. Eventually, these 3
subjects will be discovered with the DRUM backs.

Can you explain to me how they got 37 subjects on a 36 card sheet?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

Ted

this is from your post #79 in this thread

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=162935

The 350/460 series DRUM cards and the 350/460 AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) cards were both printed on same
pre-printed sheets of 37 - T206 subjects. Three of these subjects (Conroy....Mullin....Stahl) of these 37 have yet to be confirmed with DRUM backs. Eventually, these 3
subjects will be discovered with the DRUM backs.

Can you explain to me how they got 37 subjects on a 36 card sheet?

Jim

Did I say that these 37 subjects were printed on a 36-card sheet ?

I don't think so.

These 37 subjects could have been printed on a 48-card sheet, or on any standard size sheet, greater than one containing 37 - T206 size cards.

The number of subjects in a series (or a sub-set) do not necessarily equate to the number of cards that are printed on a standard size sheet. In
many cases the number of cards on a printed sheet exceed the number of subjects; therefore, there is Double-Printing (and even Triple-Printing)
in order to fill out the sheet.

This has been a standard practice in the printing industry throughout the 20th Century (and it still is).


TED Z

[White Borders]

Hi T-Rex Ted,

Good stuff

I also have noted that of these twelve 460-Only subjects, I've never found with a SC350-460 Factory 25 back. So it appears that for all 460-Only subjects, the SC350-460 Factory 25 and SC350-460 Factory 42 backs are possibly mutually exclusive (meaning if you find one with a Factory 25 back, you won't find it with a Factory 42 back, and vice-versa.) You've probably mentioned this in some other thread and I missed it.

Also, I've had in my notes that I've seen a Devore with a P42 back. I'm not sure where or when and I can't find a scan at the moment, so I may be wrong. But I got to wondering if for some reason it might have got printed ahead of schedule in place of the 350-460 series subject Tinker Bat Off for some reason (maybe the plate for Tinker broke before or early in the P42 print run and maybe they had Devore ready to go so they used it? - I know it's a real stretch of imagination), which is the only 350-460 subject we haven't found with a P42 back that we believe should have been printed with a P42 back. Just a thought and I'll let you know if I'm able to verify the Devore P42.

Best Regards and Happy Collecting
Craig

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by White Borders

I also have noted that of these twelve 460-Only subjects, I've never found with a SC350-460 Factory 25 back. So it appears that for all 460-Only subjects, the SC350-460 Factory 25 and SC350-460 Factory 42 backs are possibly mutually exclusive (meaning if you find one with a Factory 25 back, you won't find it with a Factory 42 back, and vice-versa.) You've probably mentioned this in some other thread and I missed it.

Craig

Hi Craig,

The mutually exclusive comparison between SC350-460 No.25 and SC350-460 No.42 is misleading when we separate these 12 subjects as their own group. As I've said before, these are ways we classify the cards as collectors and not necessarily how ALC printed them. These 12 are an important subset, but they were always printed with other subjects for a particular brand. When looking at the Sweet Cap backs in their entirety, including the two you mentioned, a different picture emerges.

SC350-460 #42 No OP mirrors Red Hindu
SC350-460 #30 mirrors Sovereign 460
SC350-460 #25 mirrors no other 460 series back.

I can explain this a lot more clearly but it would take a pretty detailed post to do it.

All the best,
Tim

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by White Borders

Hi T-Rex Ted,

Good stuff

I also have noted that of these twelve 460-Only subjects, I've never found with a SC350-460 Factory 25 back. So it appears that for all 460-Only subjects, the SC350-460 Factory 25 and SC350-460 Factory 42 backs are possibly mutually exclusive (meaning if you find one with a Factory 25 back, you won't find it with a Factory 42 back, and vice-versa.) You've probably mentioned this in some other thread and I missed it.

Also, I've had in my notes that I've seen a Devore with a P42 back. I'm not sure where or when and I can't find a scan at the moment, so I may be wrong. But I got to wondering if for some reason it might have got printed ahead of schedule in place of the 350-460 series subject Tinker Bat Off for some reason (maybe the plate for Tinker broke before or early in the P42 print run and maybe they had Devore ready to go so they used it? - I know it's a real stretch of imagination), which is the only 350-460 subject we haven't found with a P42 back that we believe should have been printed with a P42 back. Just a thought and I'll let you know if I'm able to verify the Devore P42.

Best Regards and Happy Collecting
Craig

Craig

Yes, the P460/42 Tinker still remains a mystery. But, I have never believed in the "broken plate" myth, simply because professional printers have multiple plates of any
given image. I think Tinker should show up some day.

I don't recall Devore with P460/42 back. However, The Monster can surprise you. I'd be very interested if you discover this Devore.


Take care,

TED Z

[Jantz]

Hi Ted

These are the same 12 players I started a thread about back in May of 2010 as to being sheet mates or possibly making up a sheet due to the wet sheet transfers that appear consistently on them.

Since then, we now know these 12 players also have Red Hindu backs.

Can't be a coincidence, can it?

46 known players with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 f#42 back to date.

Minus the 12 Red Hindu players pictured in your first post and we come up with 34.

Interesting huh?

12 or 34, I'm not sure what the magic number is, but it sure makes for good research and fun. I have my own theories, but those are for another thread.

Great thread Ted!


Jantz

[T206Collector]

"And, I do not expect that any other RH cards from this series will be discovered."

But Chris Browne identified a Brown Throwing and a Joss in his post above (although no scan). So, consider me confused.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

"And, I do not expect that any other RH cards from this series will be discovered."

But Chris Browne identified a Brown Throwing and a Joss in his post above (although no scan). So, consider me confused.

Paul

Did you miss my introductory statement......"Only 12 subjects from the 460-Only series were printed with the red HINDU (RH) back."

M. Brown (Chicago) and Joss (pitching) that Chris alluded to are subjects in the 350/460 series.

Hopefully, now you are no longer "confused".


TED Z

[wolf441]

I feel like we learn more and more about this set every day thanks to the help of the veterans on this board!! It's also odd that 8 of the 12 are action poses with yellowish backgrounds, 3 are action poses with blue backgrounds....and then you have the red background Crandall portrait. "One of these things is not like the others..."

Steve

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Paul

Did you miss my introductory statement......"Only 12 subjects from the 460-Only series were printed with the red HINDU (RH) back."

M. Brown (Chicago) and Joss (pitching) that Chris alluded to are subjects in the 350/460 series.

Hopefully, now you are no longer "confused".


TED Z

Thanks - that clears it up for me.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Hi Ted

These are the same 12 players I started a thread about back in May of 2010 as to being sheet mates or possibly making up a sheet due to the wet sheet transfers that appear consistently on them.

Since then, we now know these 12 players also have Red Hindu backs.

Can't be a coincidence, can it?

46 known players with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 f#42 back to date.

Minus the 12 Red Hindu players pictured in your first post and we come up with 34.

Interesting huh?

12 or 34, I'm not sure what the magic number is, but it sure makes for good research and fun. I have my own theories, but those are for another thread.

Great thread Ted!


Jantz

Thanx Jantz

Can this be a coincidence....how about chalking it up to...."great minds think alike"


Anyhow, I have been tracking these 12 subjects since I started on my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) sub-set, about 7 years ago.







What struck me about these 12 - T206's was that they were, without question, much more available with AB 460 backs than any of the other 63 subjects with the AB 460 back.
Subsequently, I also noticed that these same T206 guys were more available with the red HINDU backs, than the other T206's with this scarce back. Furthermore, that these 12
were the only T206 red HINDU cards in the 460-Only series. So, all that and other factors regarding rare backs (noted in Post #1 here) suggested to me that they were "special".
Therefore, I refer to them as the "Exclusive 12".


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

While I do not accept POP report data as absolute, I think it is fair to say that the POP data is representive of the relative availability of certain cards with respect to other cards.

So, here is the POP report data regarding the "Exclusive 12" with red HINDU backs with respect to the 350/460 series cards with red HINDU backs.

The numbers of the Exclusive 12 subjects, when compared with the numbers of the 350/460 series subjects, overwhelmingly suggest that the Exclusive 12 cards were printed on
a separate sheet of their own.


The POP # = PSA + SGC

Exclusive 12

POP#.....Subject

12 ........ Crandall
6 .......... Devore
7 .......... Duffy
8 .......... Ford
8 .......... Gandil
7 .......... Geyer
13 ........ Hummel
10 ........ McGraw
7 .......... Pfeffer
7 .......... Sheckard
7 .......... Tannehill
10 ........ Wheat


350/460 Subjects

POP #.....Subjects (30 total)

7 .......... Baker **

4 .......... Davis, Snodgrass, Stahl

3 .......... Brown, Chase (blue), Cobb, Johnson, Kleinow

2 .......... Bender, Chance, Downey, Evers, Joss, CYoung

1 .......... Donlin, Doolan, Doyle, Griffith, Magee, Murphy, O'Leary, Seymour, Street, Sweeney

0 .......... Chase (dark cap), Elberfeld, Konetchy, Rucker, Willis


Note **....It appears that Baker was most likely a Double-Print on the sheet comprising of the 350/460 series cards.


TED Z

[tedzan]

For those who have not followed this thread, for better understanding, realize that these Exclusive 12 subjects are part of the 46 subjects in the 460-Only series of the T206 set.






Reiterating....while I do not accept POP report data as absolute, I think it is fair to say that the POP data is representive of the relative availability of certain cards with respect
to other cards.

Here is the POP report data regarding the Exclusive 12 with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 backs with respect to the other subjects in the 460-Only series with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
backs.

The POP #'s = PSA + SGC

Exclusive 12

POP #'s......Subject

18 ............ Crandall
19 ............ Devore
18 ............ Duffy
17 ............ Ford
15 ............ Gandil
10 ............ Geyer
15 ............ Hummel
22 ............ McGraw
9 ............. Pfeffer
20 ........... Sheckard
8 ............. Tannehill
13 ........... Wheat


460-Only Subjects

POP #'s.....Subjects (34 total)

5 ............. Latham, Needham, Schlei (portrait)

4 ............. Meyers

3 ............. Camnitz (arm on side), Frill, Lake, Marquard, Oldring, Seymour, Smith

2 ............. Bell, Bergen, Bridwell, Chase, Herzog, Merkle, Overall, Payne, Stovall, Tinker

1 ............. Abbaticchio, Ball, Bescher, Chance, Howell, McGraw (portrait), Schaefer, Schlei (bat)

0 ............. Camnitz (hds over head), Doyle, Murray, Schulte, Wiltse (portrait)


As is obvious from these numbers, this data is even more dramatic than the red HINDU numbers (Post #17) in demonstrating that the Exclusive 12 subjects were printed on a
separate sheet of their own. These #'s suggest that these 12 subjects were possibly Triple-Printed on a 36-card sheet. Furthermore, the remaining AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
cards in the 460-Only series were printed on a separate sheet of their own.

Any meaningful discussion on these findings is welcome.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Double post

[tedzan]

.





Reiterating....while I do not accept POP report data as absolute, I think it is fair to say that the POP data is representive of the relative availability of certain cards with respect
to other cards.

Here is the POP report data regarding the Exclusive 12 with SOVEREIGN 460 backs with respect to the other subjects in the 460-Only series with SOVEREIGN 460 backs.

The POP #'s = PSA + SGC

Exclusive 12

POP #'s......Subject

34 ............ Crandall
32 ............ Devore
49 ............ Duffy
58 ............ Ford
44 ............ Gandil
41 ............ Geyer
34 ............ Hummel
37 ............ McGraw
28 ............ Pfeffer
26 ............ Sheckard
37 ............ Tannehill
45 ............ Wheat


460-Only Subjects & Super Prints

POP #...............................Subjects (40 total)

40-card AVERAGE = 10.6 .....Abbaticchio, Ball, Bell, Bergen, Bridwell, Bescher, Camnitz (arm/side), Camnitz (hds over head), Chance (bat), Chance (portrait -yellow), Chase (blue),
Chase (dark cap), Chase (trophy), Cobb (red), Doyle, Evers (bat-Chicago), Frill, Herzog, Howell, Lake, Latham, Marquard, Mathewson (dark cap), McGraw (portrait), Merkle, Meyers
Murray, Needham, Oldring, Overall, Payne, Schaefer, Schlei (portrait), Schlei (bat), Schulte, Seymour, H. Smith, Stovall, Tinker, Wiltse



Again, these numbers further reinforce my theory that the Exclusive 12 guys were T206 subjects which were printed on a separate sheet of their own.
And, that these 12 were possibly Triple-Printed on a 36-card sheet....or, Quadruple-Printed on a 48-card sheet.


Any meaningful discussions on the Red HINDU, AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, or SOVEREIGN 460 findings here are welcome.


TED Z

[atx840]

42 Red Hindus from the SCP find and 6 from the 13 I posted earlier were graded by PSA.

Originally Posted by willworkforT206

Chris/Ted,

Total increase of 48, which appears to be the 42 from the find plus 6 additional submissions.

360/460 Series (+14 Total)
+1 Brown (Chicago)
+2 Davis (Davis on Front)
+1 Donlin (With Bat)
+2 Downey (Batting)
+2 Johnson (Hands At Chest)
+1 Joss (Pitching)
+1 Murphy (Batting)
+1 Seymor (Throwing)
+1 Snodgrass (Catching)
+1 Street (Catching)
+1 Sweeney (Fielding)

“Super Prints” (+5 Total)
+2 Chance (Yellow)
+1 Chase (Blue)
+2 Cobb (Red)

460 Series (+29 Total)
+4 Crandall (With Cap)
+2 Devore
+1 Duffy
+3 Ford
+2 Gandil
+4 Geyer
+3 Hummel
+3 McGraw (Glove Hip)
+2 Pfeffer
+1 Tannehill
+4 Wheat

Hope this helps.

Steve

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Ted- interesting info, I have Geyer in a PSA 6 (SCap fact 42) is there a premium on value? Thanks.....

Kevin

I would say a slight premium. Besides me, I don't think there's that much of a demand for SC 460/42 T206's.

I could be wrong, though.

Best regards,

TED Z