OT: No One Elected to the Hall?

novakjr · #1 01-09-2013, 01:18 PM

I think we're gonna see a big induction next year. Maddux, Glavine and Thomas all go in 1st ballot. Biggio and Piazza get in next year as well(I think they were both 1st ballot sanbagged), Bagwell may go in(so that he and Biggio go in together).. I think Morris has pretty much peaked. I don't think he gets in next year.

Mussina and Kent will probably be the only 1st timers for next year, to stay on the ballot.

sportscardpete · #2 01-09-2013, 01:24 PM

I'm against PED use, but I still find it weird Biggio ends up with almost twice the vote as Bonds. Just my two cents.

BearBailey · #3 01-09-2013, 01:25 PM

Just another reason to never step foot in the Baseball HOF!

EvilKing00 · #4 01-09-2013, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BearBailey

Just another reason to never step foot in the Baseball HOF!

yea im feeling the same way - this is a joke. The Best PLAYERS of the era are supposed to be in. Its History. Not suposed to be a popularity contest. Damn cobb would never get in today i guess.

insidethewrapper · #5 01-09-2013, 01:26 PM

I think the best of each era should get in. The best 1% of each era. You can't compare 19th Century players with current players or Deadball era vs live ball era.
The ballpark you play in is also a "big" factor. Jack Morris in Tiger Stadium, Babe Ruth or any left hand hitting Yankee at the short right field fence. I think under 300 feet ! Even now Granderson hitting over 40 in New York.

How about players with "Tommy John Surgery ". Do they have an unfair advantage over players without the surgery ? Will they be banned in the future ? After the surgery, many are much better pitchers and throw with greater velocity because they physically changed their body.

autograf · #6 01-09-2013, 01:28 PM

Guess 3000 hit's isn't the first ballot barometer......or are there questions about Biggio and PED's? Surprised at the low number for all the PED guys. Gonna be a long time (if ever) for them...........

insidethewrapper · #7 01-09-2013, 01:29 PM

The sign in Cooperstown states :" The Birthplace of Baseball ". We know that is a lie. Also Abner Doubleday is not the inventor of baseball. another lie which Cooperstown is based. So you can lie, but not gamble or take steroids. I think that is interesting.

EvilKing00 · #8 01-09-2013, 01:31 PM

I think that there should be a "new HOF" run by someone else who understands baseball and how history needs to be written.

Piratedogcardshows · #9 01-09-2013, 01:32 PM

Clemens and Schilling get more votes than Bonds?He will never get in.

Touch'EmAll · #10 01-09-2013, 01:38 PM

This day was needed to help send a message to all of America's youth and currently pro athletes - "Don't do it, its not right, and it will not be tolerated."

Had Clemens and Bonds got in, it would have sent a terribly wrong message to all our kids of today.

Now that the message has been sent, perhaps they will get into the Hall in another year. We'll see.

p.s. I will always toot my horn for Roger Maris and Bo Jackson - I can give many reasons they should be in the Hall. Fewer reasons they should not.

HOF Auto Rookies · #11 01-09-2013, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

This day was needed to help send a message to all of America's youth and currently pro athletes - "Don't do it, its not right, and it will not be tolerated."

Had Clemens and Bonds got in, it would have sent a terribly wrong message to all our kids of today.

Now that the message has been sent, perhaps they will get into the Hall in another year. We'll see.

p.s. I will always toot my horn for Roger Maris and Bo Jackson - I can give many reasons they should be in the Hall. Fewer reasons they should not.

It also sent a message saying that the best players aren't good enough to get in. How does a 3k hitter not get in for example...Hall is a joke. They need to change the balloting system.

bcbgcbrcb · #12 01-09-2013, 02:19 PM

Am I the only one that thinks Frank Thomas was a "monster" hitter?

Peter_Spaeth · #13 01-09-2013, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Am I the only one that thinks Frank Thomas was a "monster" hitter?

Certainly for the first half of his career. He was headed for truly elite status, but his second half was not nearly as productive, I believe he missed a year due to injuries and while he still had some good seasons after that, it wasn't at the same level.

glchen · #14 01-09-2013, 02:31 PM

I'm one of the keep 'em all out people. I equate amphetamine / greenies more like a stronger form of coffee. I've never seen any kind of stat where after amphetamines were banned, some kind of baseball statistic such as strikeouts, home runs, batting average suddenly went down. So that tells me that the effect of these on the "numbers" in baseball was negligible. (If someone does have some stats on these, please correct me.) However, steroids was completely different. All of the numbers went up, way, way up, and since they have been banned, no one has approached 60 home runs again. That shows that the effect of steroids on the game was huge, and if you used it, you shouldn't get rewarded for it by being inducted into the Hall of Fame. This is not about being a likeable person or not (e.g., Cobb), but just that if you were on 'roids, your numbers were not genuine.

I really thought Biggio would get in. I didn't think he was associated w/ steroids or had that kind of body type. Maybe next year. I am also hoping that Morris is able to get in next year although it looks tough. I think next year Maddux and Glavine make it in, but the Big Hurt is left off.

triwak · #15 01-09-2013, 02:37 PM

Well, at least I don't have to devote any financial resources toward a Jack Morris or Mike Piazza card. I can now apply all those HUGE savings toward my upcoming Deacon White purchase!!!

yanks12025 · #16 01-09-2013, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I think the best of each era should get in. The best 1% of each era. You can't compare 19th Century players with current players or Deadball era vs live ball era.
The ballpark you play in is also a "big" factor. Jack Morris in Tiger Stadium, Babe Ruth or any left hand hitting Yankee at the short right field fence. I think under 300 feet ! Even now Granderson hitting over 40 in New York.

How about players with "Tommy John Surgery ". Do they have an unfair advantage over players without the surgery ? Will they be banned in the future ? After the surgery, many are much better pitchers and throw with greater velocity because they physically changed their body.

It is not under 300 feet.

z28jd · #17 01-09-2013, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novakjr

I think we're gonna see a big induction next year. Maddux, Glavine and Thomas all go in 1st ballot. Biggio and Piazza get in next year as well(I think they were both 1st ballot sanbagged), Bagwell may go in(so that he and Biggio go in together).. I think Morris has pretty much peaked. I don't think he gets in next year.

I figured Morris would at least jump up to 70-72% range, then get in next year. Now I'm not 100% sure with Glavine, Maddux and Thomas on the ballot. There may be too many names on the ballot for him to get in next year. Morris might finish just short in his last season, even with the usual push and while I disagree with him not being in, I could definitely see it happening due to a crowded ballot.

I'm shocked Piazza got so many votes, just shows what little evidence voters are basing their steroid judgement on as if the Mitchell report caught every player using. A 62nd round draft pick as the all-time HR leader for catchers (but he had the 20th most games played at the position)doesn't raise eyebrows?

Biggio has some questionable seasons in there too, a huge jump in homers at age 27 in 1993, then a career high in HR's at age 39? plus being teammates with the accused by some Bagwell, Luis Gonzalez and Ken Caminiti all in 1993? Also with the 93 Astros, Chris Donnells, named in Mitchell report.

Some voters are just blind to their own reasoning, not voting for players accused but assuming others are clean just because a half-assed report didn't name them, as if there were only two people dealing steroids in the 90's and if they didn't know you, you couldn't get them. Apparently baseball writers are also judges and the jury(not talking about stats here either)

EvilKing00 · #18 01-09-2013, 01:57 PM

if the "HOF" thinks current players arent doing HGH now (since there is no test) and once there is a test for HGH they wont find another PED to improve their game, then they arent paying attention.

Its about being the best and doing everything to get an advantage. Jeter faking getting hit by a pitch, trying to get a little more pine tar on your bat, spitting on your next pitch, downing a can of red bull before your next at bat.

Its time to judge the players numbers - if you want to go back into the HOF and pick at players for doing drugs, or "cheeting" and kicking guys out for it , there will be not many left in your museum

Tom Hufford · #19 01-09-2013, 02:06 PM

Just stop and think how great baseball really is - have you ever, EVER heard of or read a discussion - or criticism - of who was or wasn't elected to the FOOTBALL or BASKETBALL Halls of Fame?

itjclarke · #20 01-09-2013, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z28jd

I'm shocked Piazza got so many votes, just shows what little evidence voters are basing their steroid judgement on as if the Mitchell report caught every player using. A 62nd round draft pick as the all-time HR leader for catchers (but he had the 20th most games played at the position)doesn't raise eyebrows?

Completely agree, Piazza seems very suspicious.

Regarding Bonds, he was the only 400 400 man in baseball history before season's end 1998. He had also won 8 GG and 3 MVPs, all prior to when Game of Shadows (which should not be taken as fact) alleged he started using. I'm not a Bonds lover, but think it will be absurd if he and Clemens do not eventually make the Hall.

Robextend · #21 01-09-2013, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Regarding Bonds, he was the only 400 400 man in baseball history before season's end 1998, as well as had won 8 GG and 3 MVPs, all prior to when Game of Shadows (which should not be taken as fact) alleged he started using. I'm not a Bonds lover, but think it will be absurd if he and eventually Clemens do not make the Hall.

How do you really know when Bonds took his first steroid? Maybe he started in the late 80's...maybe early 90's? The fact that he took at all brings his whole career into question.

HOF Auto Rookies · #22 01-09-2013, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend

How do you really know when Bonds took his first steroid? Maybe he started in the late 80's...maybe early 90's? The fact that he took at all brings his whole career into question.

You could go the other way and say how do you know if he took any. Remember people tend to forget that he never got "caught."

Robextend · #23 01-09-2013, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

You could go the other way and say how do you know if he took any. Remember people tend to forget that he never got "caught."

Without a doubt you are right...you would be in the extreme vast minority becasue of the overhwleming circumstantial evidence, but you are right.

HOF Auto Rookies · #24 01-09-2013, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend

Without a doubt you are right...you would be in the extreme vast minority becasue of the overhwleming circumstantial evidence, but you are right.

True lol

itjclarke · #25 01-09-2013, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend

Without a doubt you are right...you would be in the extreme vast minority becasue of the overhwleming circumstantial evidence, but you are right.

Where do you draw the line as it relates to circumstantial evidence? I'm sure there's a measure of circumstantial evidence against just about anyone who played in the era. Pujols at one point was linked, I believe to a Dr or trainer? (can't remember) that was a PED dealer. I think the Mitchell report only scratched the surface of the problem, so are all the guys who were implicated in that excluded from the hall, while other guys who simply got away with it allowed in?

Are all guys who tested or will test positive one time be forever excluded- A Rod? Had Ryan Braun's pee not been mishandled, would he forever be excluded? If someone rats out a player that's already been inducted, does he get thrown out? I don't know the answers, but do think this is going to damage the hall's (and its voting methods/criteria) image, because this will all be very polarizing for years to come.

EvilKing00 · #26 01-09-2013, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robextend

How do you really know when Bonds took his first steroid? Maybe he started in the late 80's...maybe early 90's? The fact that he took at all brings his whole career into question.

though we all know bonds did it - he never failed a test

HRBAKER · #27 01-09-2013, 07:31 PM

They all enjoyed the fruits of their labors, the cheering, the adulation, the money. Being denied entrance to the Hall of Fame seems a small price to pay to me for their choice. They made a choice, they are now dealing with the fallout. Not being voted in doesn't mean Bonds isn't the all-time HR leader, it just means that a lot of folks and most of the voters don't regard it as legitimate. Baseball has a huge mess on their hands, that is their just desserts for turning their head and trading legitimacy for increased crowds and revenue. All hands and I mean all are dirty, unfortunately for the players there is a mechanism for people to express their displeasure. Sanctimonious, maybe but certainly understandable and I agree with voting no one in. I don't agree because you can't prove anything that you have to act like it never happened.

EvilKing00 · #28 01-09-2013, 08:15 PM

so if they dont let these guys in.....who from the PED - era will they let in?

HOF Auto Rookies · #29 01-09-2013, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

though we all know bonds did it - he never failed a test

That's hearsay for you to say, "we all know he did it" when he has proven his innocence thus far. Not saying he didn't, I believe he did and don't care.

HOF Auto Rookies · #30 01-09-2013, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

though we all know bonds did it - he never failed a test

That's hearsay for you to say, "we all know he did it" when he has proven his innocence thus far. Not saying he didn't, I believe he did and don't care.

dgo71 · #31 01-09-2013, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z28jd

I'm shocked Piazza got so many votes, just shows what little evidence voters are basing their steroid judgement on as if the Mitchell report caught every player using. A 62nd round draft pick as the all-time HR leader for catchers (but he had the 20th most games played at the position)doesn't raise eyebrows?

Biggio has some questionable seasons in there too, a huge jump in homers at age 27 in 1993, then a career high in HR's at age 39? plus being teammates with the accused by some Bagwell, Luis Gonzalez and Ken Caminiti all in 1993? Also with the 93 Astros, Chris Donnells, named in Mitchell report.

Neither Piazza nor Biggio ever failed a test, were named on any reports or linked to anyone who distributed steroids. Everything about them came from unfounded rumors started by people who made the same assumptions you are making. I'm all for punishing the guilty, but not the guilty by association.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Santo elected to HOF	Kenny Cole	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	54	12-06-2011 07:11 PM
Pat Gillick Elected	bcbgcbrcb	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	24	12-07-2010 05:33 PM
Whitey Herzog and Doug Harvey elected to the Hall	paul	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	24	12-08-2009 11:22 PM
No One Elected Again	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	81	03-09-2007 06:39 PM
What would happen if Joe Jackson was elected into the HOF?	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	27	02-20-2007 08:15 AM