OT: No One Elected to the Hall?

[ctownboy]

Insidethewrapper,

1) Supposedly there are some steroids that do help with vision. I think it is some sort of steroid given to horses.

2) Even if they don't help your vision they DO help prolong a career. Look at baseball players BEFORE the Steroid Era and what you will find is that most of them have a similar arc; they put up their best stats when they were in their late 20's, had their performance drop some over the next few years and then started to really tail off after the age of 35. Now look at the Steroid Era.

Like Keith Olbermann said in his blog article (which was posted earlier). In the Steroid Era you had big guys hitting Home Runs MUCH farther than they had before. You had smaller middle infield - typo players hitting more Home Runs than they ever had and also hitting opposite field Home Runs where they had hardly ever done that. Most telling of all, you had guys over the age or 35 putting up better stats than they had at the age of 25. That just does not happen in normal baseball.

Johhny Bench and Yogi Berra were retired by the age of 35. Jimmie Foxx was pretty much done by the age of 32. Yet there Barry Bonds was putting up numbers NO ONE had ever put up before.

If you look at the research, baseball players' peaks usually come between the ages of 26 to 29. This is because their bodies have matured and they have played enough games that their experience helps them. After the age of 30, most mens metabolism starts to slow down (so gaining weight is easier and losing it is harder). A little later in their 30's, the testosterone production starts to fall. So these things added to the fact that reflexes also start to slow accounts for why baseball players stats drop over time as they get older.

Then there are cases like Barry Bonds.

During Bonds first 11 years in MLB, he had a high of 46 Home Runs and had hit 40+ Home Runs in three different seasons. During what most player's peak years would be (26 - 29) Bonds hit 25, 34, 46 and 37 Home Runs, respectively. Notice that the 46 Home Runs were his high to that point of his career and came in his age 28 season.

Now look what happens later.

Ages 30 -34, Bonds hits 33, 42, 40, 37 and 34 Home Runs, respectively.

Ages 35 - 39, Bonds hits 49, 73, 46, 45 and 45.

So, he hti at or above his career high in HR's every year while ALSO getting fewer pitches to hit (because pitchers were walking him so much).

This isn't to even mention the increase in the actual size of his head and feet. I don't know how old you are but I am in my mid - 40's and the size of my head and feet hasn't increased since I was a teenager. Yet a guy on the Giants said that Bonds hat and shoe size increased in his later years. Years when MOST people's bones have already matured and fused together so that growth CAN"T happen.

Finally, people say that there weren't rules against steroids before 2004. WRONG. Google Fay Vincent and steroids and see what you come up with. There are a couple of interesting articles, one of which talks about Bud Selig when he was the owner of the Brewers.

David

[tbob]

According to ESPN today, Dale Murphy will not get enough votes to even stay on the ballot for next year, much less ever make it in to the Hall. Hard to imagine Billy Williams in the Hall and Dale Murphy not.
I predict Biggio and Piazza get in with Jack Morris close. That's it. No Raines, Walker, Palmeiro, Clemens,Trammell, Bonds, Sosa, Lee Smith, Edgar Martinez or Schilling.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by tbob

According to ESPN today, Dale Murphy will not get enough votes to even stay on the ballot for next year, much less ever make it in to the Hall. Hard to imagine Billy Williams in the Hall and Dale Murphy not.
I predict Biggio and Piazza get in with Jack Morris close. That's it. No Raines, Walker, Palmeiro, Clemens,Trammell, Bonds, Sosa, Lee Smith, Edgar Martinez or Schilling.

You may have read that wrong. He won't be on next year's ballot because this year is his 15th and final year to be eligible on it...

[EvilKing00]

I think they (the PED) all should get in, if they have the numbers to get in that is. They were the best of their time. We arent comparing bonds to ruth here, we are comparing bonds to those he played with.

Here is a letter i wrote to the HOF and some others - that I got some good feedback from.



I know this will have no influence over any voting as current members and writer’s only vote, but I felt I had to express my opinion and observations not for myself but for my son who is 3 years old.

I’m 38 years old and live in New York, I grew up a big Mets fan and I got to see the Mets win the World Series when I was a kid. God I loved watching baseball and that was some team to watch. A lot of those players drank and did drugs, cocaine specifically. I also watched players cork their bats and fill their bats with batteries to give them an advantage at the plate. It was baseball and fun to watch. Players always did and always will do what they have to do to get an advantage.

I have seen Mike Scott scuff balls and of course there was the Joe Niekro incident when he was suspended for having a nail file in his pocket and scuffing the ball. Kevin Gross was caught with sandpaper, Gaylord Perry was famous for his spit ball as well.

I have heard stories from my grand father of how Mickey Mantle was a big drinker and Speed user and how Ty Cobb would sharpen his cleats so to give him an advantage sliding into second base. Many players back then did a lot of Amphetamines, this is not a secret and Amphetamines are also a PED.

Clarence Faber, Stan Covelski, and Burleigh Grimes are among the 17 pitchers who were allowed to keep throwing the spitball under a "grandfather" clause when the spitball was banned.

These players got caught, im sure this wasn’t the 1st time they cheated and im sure its wasn’t the last. I am also sure that there are others that have done the same and gotten away with it. Everyone who cheats dosnt always get caught. There was that “list” with 100 players on it who were caught doing PED’s, but how many players werent caught? 200? 300? More? We will never know.

I can continue but I know you get the jist of this. Corking bats, stuffing bats with batteries, throwing spit balls and scuffing balls is cheating. And yes so is PED’s.

I now see players drinking “Protein drinks” to get an edge. I see players on the bench drinking cans of red bull to get them selves UP for their next at bat. Is this also performance enhancing?

A player has always done and will always do whatever they can to have an advantage. This will never change. Weather its, sharpening his cleets, corking bats, popping speed, snorting cocaine, doing steroids, or HGH and whatever is the next thing that comes around that can enhance a player’s performance. And make no mistake there will be more PED down the road.

Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Piazza, Griffy, Biggio, Bagwell, Clemens, Maddux, Smolts, Glavin, Arod, Shefield, Manny, etc – Some were caught some were not, Some did it some maybe didn’t, they were all great and a part of the history of the game and were some of the best players in baseball history.

I hope when my son is old enough I can take him to the Baseball Hall of fame and not only show him Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, but also the amazing players that played when I was a kid.

But Like I said I know this letter will have no impact, so if some of the greatest players of all time never get voted into the Hall Of Fame, when I bring my son I will also have to bring my old news paper clippings and baseball cards of players who I watched and who put up some amazing numbers. I will have to teach him on my own what players were dominant during their time. Or maybe there will be another Baseball Museum I can go to with all the great players.

I want my Son to know the history of baseball, just like I was told about “The Mick” Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth and all the others. I will tell him about Bonds and Mcgwire and the rest of the 1990’s players who also put up amazing numbers. He will know how great and dominant they were and also what they did, just like I know how great Cobb and Mantle were but also what they did.

Hopefully the HOF will continue to have all the best players that have played the game to be on display. A history and showcase of the greatest players ever. …That’s the whole concept isn’t it? If not I hope there will be a place I can take my son to show him all these players in baseball history who were the elite of their time. Weather they sharpened their cleets, scuffed balls, threw spitters, corked bats, popped speed, snorting cocaine, drank Red Bull, took caffeine pills, used caffeine inhalants, did steroids, or HGH. And what ever comes next.

They are all the greatest players to ever play this game.

Isn’t the Halls Motto "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations."

Yours truly,
A Huge Baseball Fan

Steve from Massapequa


PS – Banning Pete Rose from Baseball makes sense, keeping him from working for a team and out of the actual game is his sentence for betting on baseball BUT keeping him out of the HOF makes no sense at all – again the HOF is a history of the games best.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by tbob

According to ESPN today, Dale Murphy will not get enough votes to even stay on the ballot for next year, much less ever make it in to the Hall. Hard to imagine Billy Williams in the Hall and Dale Murphy not.
I predict Biggio and Piazza get in with Jack Morris close. That's it. No Raines, Walker, Palmeiro, Clemens,Trammell, Bonds, Sosa, Lee Smith, Edgar Martinez or Schilling.

+1

[Jlighter]

SHUTOUT, only the Eighth Time. First since 1996.

Biggio got 68 percent.

[EvilKing00]

biggo 68.2, Bonds 36.2 , Clemens 37.6 , Mike Piazza 57.8, Curt Schilling 38.8

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

biggo 68.2, Bonds 36.2 , Clemens 37.6 , Mike Piazza 57.8, Curt Schilling 38.8

Jack Morris 67+ percent. Has 1 more year left

Joe

[novakjr]

I think we're gonna see a big induction next year. Maddux, Glavine and Thomas all go in 1st ballot. Biggio and Piazza get in next year as well(I think they were both 1st ballot sanbagged), Bagwell may go in(so that he and Biggio go in together).. I think Morris has pretty much peaked. I don't think he gets in next year.

Mussina and Kent will probably be the only 1st timers for next year, to stay on the ballot.

[sportscardpete]

I'm against PED use, but I still find it weird Biggio ends up with almost twice the vote as Bonds. Just my two cents.

[BearBailey]

Just another reason to never step foot in the Baseball HOF!

[insidethewrapper]

I think the best of each era should get in. The best 1% of each era. You can't compare 19th Century players with current players or Deadball era vs live ball era.
The ballpark you play in is also a "big" factor. Jack Morris in Tiger Stadium, Babe Ruth or any left hand hitting Yankee at the short right field fence. I think under 300 feet ! Even now Granderson hitting over 40 in New York.

How about players with "Tommy John Surgery ". Do they have an unfair advantage over players without the surgery ? Will they be banned in the future ? After the surgery, many are much better pitchers and throw with greater velocity because they physically changed their body.

[autograf]

Guess 3000 hit's isn't the first ballot barometer......or are there questions about Biggio and PED's? Surprised at the low number for all the PED guys. Gonna be a long time (if ever) for them...........

[insidethewrapper]

The sign in Cooperstown states :" The Birthplace of Baseball ". We know that is a lie. Also Abner Doubleday is not the inventor of baseball. another lie which Cooperstown is based. So you can lie, but not gamble or take steroids. I think that is interesting.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I think the best of each era should get in. The best 1% of each era. You can't compare 19th Century players with current players or Deadball era vs live ball era.
The ballpark you play in is also a "big" factor. Jack Morris in Tiger Stadium, Babe Ruth or any left hand hitting Yankee at the short right field fence. I think under 300 feet ! Even now Granderson hitting over 40 in New York.

How about players with "Tommy John Surgery ". Do they have an unfair advantage over players without the surgery ? Will they be banned in the future ? After the surgery, many are much better pitchers and throw with greater velocity because they physically changed their body.

It is not under 300 feet.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I think we're gonna see a big induction next year. Maddux, Glavine and Thomas all go in 1st ballot. Biggio and Piazza get in next year as well(I think they were both 1st ballot sanbagged), Bagwell may go in(so that he and Biggio go in together).. I think Morris has pretty much peaked. I don't think he gets in next year.

I figured Morris would at least jump up to 70-72% range, then get in next year. Now I'm not 100% sure with Glavine, Maddux and Thomas on the ballot. There may be too many names on the ballot for him to get in next year. Morris might finish just short in his last season, even with the usual push and while I disagree with him not being in, I could definitely see it happening due to a crowded ballot.

I'm shocked Piazza got so many votes, just shows what little evidence voters are basing their steroid judgement on as if the Mitchell report caught every player using. A 62nd round draft pick as the all-time HR leader for catchers (but he had the 20th most games played at the position)doesn't raise eyebrows?

Biggio has some questionable seasons in there too, a huge jump in homers at age 27 in 1993, then a career high in HR's at age 39? plus being teammates with the accused by some Bagwell, Luis Gonzalez and Ken Caminiti all in 1993? Also with the 93 Astros, Chris Donnells, named in Mitchell report.

Some voters are just blind to their own reasoning, not voting for players accused but assuming others are clean just because a half-assed report didn't name them, as if there were only two people dealing steroids in the 90's and if they didn't know you, you couldn't get them. Apparently baseball writers are also judges and the jury(not talking about stats here either)

[EvilKing00]

if the "HOF" thinks current players arent doing HGH now (since there is no test) and once there is a test for HGH they wont find another PED to improve their game, then they arent paying attention.

Its about being the best and doing everything to get an advantage. Jeter faking getting hit by a pitch, trying to get a little more pine tar on your bat, spitting on your next pitch, downing a can of red bull before your next at bat.

Its time to judge the players numbers - if you want to go back into the HOF and pick at players for doing drugs, or "cheeting" and kicking guys out for it , there will be not many left in your museum

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I'm shocked Piazza got so many votes, just shows what little evidence voters are basing their steroid judgement on as if the Mitchell report caught every player using. A 62nd round draft pick as the all-time HR leader for catchers (but he had the 20th most games played at the position)doesn't raise eyebrows?

Completely agree, Piazza seems very suspicious.

Regarding Bonds, he was the only 400 400 man in baseball history before season's end 1998. He had also won 8 GG and 3 MVPs, all prior to when Game of Shadows (which should not be taken as fact) alleged he started using. I'm not a Bonds lover, but think it will be absurd if he and Clemens do not eventually make the Hall.