Comparison of checklists for T215-1 RED CROSS set vs "PIRATE" set

[tedzan]

The RED CROSS (T215-1) set consists of 96 cards. It's essentially comprised of T206 subjects from the 350-only series, 350/460 series,
and 460-only series.....and, one subject from the 150/350 series.

T206 "experts" are quite puzzled that American Lithographic (ALC) included this lone 150/350 series card of Mathewson (white cap) in
the RED CROSS set....and, even more puzzling is why ALC apparently omitted Cobb from their T215 "PIRATE" set.



These cards were issued in 2 series. The 1st series of 48 (or 36) subjects in 1910. The 2nd series of 48 (or 60) subjects in the Spring of 1912.

The T215 cards were printed at ALC. The RED CROSS cards were shipped to the Lorillard plant (Factory #10) in Jersey City (NJ), and inserted
into the Red Cross tobacco products. A large find of Red Cross cards occurred some years back in the Louisiana area. The "Pirate" cards were
shipped to Bristol, England to the W.D. & H.O. Willis Tobacco Co. and inserted in their PIRATE cigarette packs, which were exported to the Far
East.

Some uncertainty exists with respect to this T215-1 RED CROSS list. However, a 96-card "complete" set of the "PIRATE" Tobacco cards, has
been confirmed. By cross-referencing the RED CROSS set and the "PIRATE" set, a close match exists between the fronts of these two White-
Bordered, Brown-Captioned sets (with several exceptions in team identifications).


.


.


RED CROSS..... 96 subjects .................................................. ............... "PIRATE"..... 96 subjects (plus Byrne variation)

Ames (hands above head)............................................. ..........................Ames (hands above head)
Baker............................................. .................................................. ..Baker
Ball (Cleveland)....................................... ..............................................Ball
Bender (no trees)............................................ ......................................Bender
Bridwell (portrait-cap).............................................. ..............................Bridwell (portrait-cap)
M. Brown (Chicago)......................................... ......................................M. Brown (Chicago)
Byrne (St Louis)............................................ ........................................Byrne (St Louis)
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Byrne Pittsburg
Camnitz (arm at side)............................................. ................................Camnitz
Chance (yellow portrait)......................................... ................................Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (trophy).......................................... ...........................................Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)......................................... ....................................... NO PRINT.
Ed Collins (A's)............................................. ..........................................Ed Collins (A's)
Conroy (bat)............................................. ................................................. NO PRINT
Crandall (portrait-cap).............................................. ..............................Crandall (portrait-cap)
Crawford (bat)............................................. .........................................Crawford (bat)
Cree.............................................. .................................................. ...Cree
Davis (A's)............................................. .............................................Davis (A's)
Devore............................................ .................................................. ..Devore
Donlin (bat) Pittsburg .................................................. .........................Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)............................................. ............................................Doolan (bat)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Doolan (fielding)
Dougherty (arm in air) .................................................. ...........................Dougherty (arm in air)
L. Doyle (bat)............................................. ............................................L. Doyle (bat)
L. Doyle (portrait)........................................ ............................................L. Doyle (portrait)
Dubuc............................................. .................................................. ...Dubuc
Elberfeld (fielding)........................................ .........................................Elberfeld (fielding)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Evans
Evers (bat-yellow sky).............................................. ...............................Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ford.............................................. .................................................. ....Ford
Fromme............................................ .................................................. ..Fromme
Griffith (bat) Washington .................................................. .....................Griffith (bat)
NO PRINT .................................................. ..........................................Groom
Hartsel Toledo .................................................. .....................................Hartsel
Herzog New York, NL .................................................. ...........................Herzog
Hoblitzel......................................... .................................................. ....Hoblitzell
Hofman............................................ .................................................. ..Hofman
Howard............................................ .................................................. ..Howard
Huggins (portrait) St Louis NL .................................................. ................Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands/mouth)............................................ ................................Huggins (hands/mouth)
Hummel............................................ .................................................. ..Hummel
Jennings (one hand)............................................. ...................................Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)............................................ ...................................Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)........................................ ..........................................Johnson (pitching)
Kelley............................................ .................................................. ......Kelley
Konetchy (glove low).............................................. .................................Konetchy (glove low)
Krause............................................ .................................................. ....Krause
Lajoie (bat)............................................. .................................................. Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)............................................. .............................................Lake (no ball)
Latham............................................ .................................................. ....... NO PRINT
Leifield (bat)............................................. .................................................. Leifield (bat)
Lord.............................................. .................................................. ..........Lord
Magee (bat)............................................. .................................................. Magee (bat)
Marquard (portrait)........................................ .........................................Marquard (portrait)
Marquard (pitching)........................................ ..........................................Marquard (pitching)
Mathewson (white cap).............................................. .................................. NO PRINT
Mathewson (dark cap).............................................. ................................Mathewson (dark cap)
McGinnity......................................... .................................................. ....McGinnity
McGraw (portrait-cap).............................................. ...............................McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove)........................................... ...........................................McGraw (glove)
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)............................................... .......Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Harry McIntyre Chicago Nat'l .................................................. ..................... NO PRINT
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)......................................... .................................Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
NO PRINT .................................................. ...........................................Matty McIntyre Chicago AL
McLean............................................ .................................................. ...McLean
Merkle (throwing)........................................ ...........................................Merkle (throwing)
Meyers............................................ .................................................. ...Meyers
Miller............................................ .................................................. ......Miller
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Mitchell (Cinci)
Mowrey St Louis NL .................................................. ..............................Mowrey
Mullin(bat)....................................... .................................................. ....Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)............................................. ...........................................Murphy (bat)
Murray............................................ .................................................. ...Murray
Oakes St Louis NL .................................................. ...............................Oakes
Oldring (bat)............................................. ...........................................Oldring (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)............................................ ................................O'Leary (hands/knees)
Paskert........................................... .................................................. ..Paskert
Pelty (vertical)........................................ .............................................Pelty (vertical)
Purtell........................................... .................................................. ...Purtell
Quinn............................................. .................................................. ..Quinn
Reulbach (no glove)............................................ ...................................Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)........................................ ..........................................Rucker (throwing)
Schaefer (Washington)...................................... .....................................Schaefer
Schulte (back view)............................................. ..................................Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)........................................... ........................................Sheckard (glove)
Frank Smith Cincinnati .................................................. ........................Frank Smith Cincinnati
Speaker........................................... .................................................. .Speaker
Stahl (glove)........................................... .............................................Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat) St. Louis NL .................................................. ................Steinfeldt (bat)
Street............................................ .................................................. ..Street
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Summers
Sweeney (New York AL)............................................... ..........................Sweeney (New York AL)
Tannehill (Chicago AL)............................................... .............................Tannehill (Chicago)
NO PRINT .................................................. .........................................Thomas
Tinker (bat)............................................. ............................................Tinker (bat)
Wagner (bat on right)............................................ .................................Wagner (bat on right)
Warhop............................................ .................................................. .Warhop
Wheat............................................. .................................................. ..Wheat
Doc White (pitching)........................................ ........................................... NO PRINT
Willetts.......................................... .................................................. ....Willetts
Wilson............................................ .................................................. ....Wilson
Wiltse (portrait-cap).............................................. .................................Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Wiltse (pitching)........................................ ...........................................Wiltse (pitching)
Cy Young (glove)........................................... ............................................ NO PRINT


TRADES....circa 1909 - Spring 1912 that are reflected on these T215-1 cards.

Bobby Byrne.................from St Louis NL to Pittsburg on Aug 19, 1909
Mike Donlin...................from Boston NL to Pittsburg on February 17, 1912
Clark Griffith.................signed a contract to manage Washington in Oct 1911
Topsy Hartsel...............signed by Toledo (A A) in the Fall of 1911
Buck Herzog.................from Boston NL to New York NL on July 22, 1911
Miller Huggins (port).......from Cinci to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910
Harry McIntyre..............from Brooklyn to Chicago NL on April 13, 1910
Matty McIntyre.............from Detroit to Chicago AL on Jan 12, 1911
Mike Mowrey.................from Cinci to St Louis NL on August 22, 1909
Rebel Oakes..................from Cinci to St Louis on Feb 3, 1910
Frank Smith..................from Boston AL to Cinci on May 11, 1911
Harry Steinfeldt............1912 Spring training tryout with St Louis NL


The RED CROSS checklist is still a work in progress; therefore, I would appreciate any updates to it. Especially, I am looking for more team
changes....that are different from the original T206 captions.

Also, please continue to post your RED CROSS (and "PIRATE") cards here......or, tell us about them. This would especially be appreciated in
trying to get a better understanding of the cards in the RED CROSS set.


TED Z

[Seiklis]

Good list. From the checklists I have, Harry Krause's T215-1 is the Phil. Athletics and his T215-2 is Cleveland Naps.

Don't have it of course, don't even have a picture of it yet, one of my dream cards. Though I am curious if the list I have is correct on him

[Abravefan11]

I appreciate your efforts Ted, but your findings are short of what was actually going on with these sets, or subsets. I encourage you to continue looking into these sets and what may be possible regarding how they were put together. For now you're off the mark.

[camlov2]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I appreciate your efforts Ted, but your findings are short of what was actually going on with these sets, or subsets. I encourage you to continue looking into these sets and what may be possible regarding how they were put together. For now you're off the mark.

Can you explain how he is off the mark? Does he have wrong information posted? Is he missing cards, have cards listed that don't exist? Or do you have information that you just don't want to share?

I have no personal experience with this set but enjoy reading threads like this where info is shared. Hope you can build on what is already here.

[tedzan]

If Mr Cathy didn't post it....he does not like it. It's simply his mentality. He has resorted to this type of criticism several times before.
So, just ignore his remarks.

The "PIRATE" list of 97 cards, I have gleaned from several sources. I think it is very accurate. However, the RED CROSS list needs to
be updated....as the current cataloging of these 96 cards is not completely correct.
Therefore, my reason for posting this thread; besides, being informative.

My research (so far) indicates 10 subjects in the RED CROSS set have team changes from their T206 counterparts. There are more
team changes forthcoming, but they have not yet been confirmed.

Furthermore, the list of subjects in this 96-card set is not completely confirmed; and, may require changes.

Let's hope this proves to be a meaningful exercise.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by camlov2

Can you explain how he is off the mark? Does he have wrong information posted? Is he missing cards, have cards listed that don't exist? Or do you have information that you just don't want to share?

Yes, Yes, and Yes are the answers to your first three questions. Regarding your last question, I'm always happy to add whatever I can to the discussion if there is interest in what I have to say. I'll post more information about these sets later.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Yes, Yes, and Yes are the answers to your first three questions. Regarding your last question, I'm always happy to add whatever I can to the discussion if there is interest in what I have to say. I'll post more information about these sets later.

Tim, there is definitely interest in what you have to say. These are two sets that are tough for some of us to get a handle on, so anything you, Ted or anyone else has to add is going to be interesting to us.

I have some questions about what Ted posted, but I'll wait to see what you add.

[Abravefan11]

This is the T215-1 checklist I have and some additional information for the discussion.

1 Ames New York Nat'l
2 Baker Philadelphia Amer.
3 Ball Cleveland
4 Bender (w/ Trees) Philadelphia Amer.
5 Bender (No Trees) Philadelphia Amer.
6 Bridwell Boston Nat'l
7 Byrne Pittsburgh
8 Camnitz Pittsburgh
9 Chance Chicago Nat'l
10 Chase New York Amer.
11 Cobb Detroit
12 Collins Philadelphia Amer.
13 Conroy Washington
14 Crandall New York Nat'l
15 Crawford Detroit
16 Cree New York Amer.
17 Davis Cleveland
18 Devore New York Nat'l
19 Donlin Pittsburgh
20 Doolan (Batting) Philadelphia Nat'l
21 Doolan (Fielding) Philadelphia Nat'l
22 Dougherty Chicago Amer.
23 Doyle (w/ Bat) New York Nat'l
24 Doyle (Portrait) New York Nat'l
25 Elberfeld Washington
26 Ford New York Amer.
27 Fromme Cincinnati
28 Griffith Washington
29 Hartsel Toledo
30 Hoblitzell Cincinnati
31 Hofman Chicago Nat'l
32 Howard Chicago Nat'l
33 Huggins (Portrait) St. Louis Nat'l
34 Huggins (Hands at Mouth) Cincinnati
35 Hummel Brooklyn
36 Jennings (One Hand) Detroit
37 Jennings (Two Hand) Detroit
38 Johnson Washington
39 Konetchy St. Louis Nat'l
40 Krause Philadelphia Amer.
41 Lajoie Cleveland
42 Lake St. Louis Amer.
43 Latham New York Nat'l
44 Leach Pittsburgh
45 Leifield Pittsburgh
46 Lord Chicago Amer.
47 Magee Philadelphia Nat'l
48 Manning New York Nat'l
49 Marquard (Portrait) New York Nat'l
50 Marquard (Pitching) New York Nat'l
51 Mathewson (Dark Cap) New York Nat'l
52 Mathewson (White Cap) New York Nat'l
53 McGinnity Newark
54 McGraw (Portrait w/ Cap) New York Nat'l
55 McGraw (Glove at Hip) New York Nat'l
56 McIntyre Chicago Nat'l
57 Merkle New York Nat'l
58 Meyers New York Nat'l
59 Miller Pittsburgh
60 Mowery St. Louis Nat'l
61 Murphy Philadelphia Amer.
62 Murray New York Nat'l
63 Oakes St. Louis Nat'l
64 O'Leary Detroit
65 Paskert Philadelphia Nat'l
66 Pelty St. Louis Amer.
67 Quinn New York Amer.
68 Reulbach Chicago Nat'l
69 Rucker Brooklyn
70 Schaefer Washington
71 Schulte Chicago Nat'l
72 Sheckard Chicago Nat'l
73 Smith Cincinnati
74 Smither (sic) Montreal
75 Speaker Boston Amer.
76 Stahl Boston Amer.
77 Steinfeldt St. Louis Nat'l
78 Street (Portrait) New York Amer.
79 Street (Catching) New York Amer.
80 Sweeney New York Amer.
81 Tannehill Chicago Amer.
82 Tinker (Bat on Shoulder) Chicago Nat'l
83 Tinker (Bat off Shoulder) Chicago Nat'l
84 Wagner Boston Amer.
85 Warhop New York Amer.
86 Wheat Brooklyn
87 White Chicago Amer.
88 Willetts Detroit
89 Wilson Pittsburgh
90 Wiltse (Portrait w/ Cap) New York Nat'l
91 Wiltse (Pitching) New York Nat'l
92 Young Boston Nat'l

I didn't check the entire list in the OP yet, but I did notice Chance should be the bat off pose, not yellow portrait.

This is additional player information to add to what is in the OP that is important to dating the set.

Bridwell-Boston Nat’l---July 22, 1911 Traded by New York to Boston Nat’l
Davis-Cleveland---October 1911 named Cleveland manager
Paskert-Philadelphia Nat’l---November 12, 1910 Traded to Philadelphia Nat’l
Street-NY Amer---February 17, 1912 Traded to New York from Washington
Young-Boston Nat’l---Signed contract with Boston Nat'l Feb 1, 1912 - retired May 24, 1912

Every subjects team designation in the T215-1 set is where they were in the first few months of 1912 with the exception of two. The two are Howard-Chicago Nat'l and Manning-New York Nat'l. Howard did not play for Chicago after 1909 and Manning did not play for New York after 1910.

There are players that have no statistics with their designated team in 1912 but were with them at the beginning of the year.

Conroy-Washington---Retired/Cut prior to the season in March 1912
Dougherty-Chicago Amer---Retired in late February 1912 prior to the season.
Elberfeld-Washington---Retired/Cut prior to the season in March 1912


I'll add more regarding the Pirate set later.

[teetwoohsix]

Great stuff guys.

Tim, I'm always interested in what you have to say; keep posting

I was wondering about Smither (sic) Montreal last night as I was reading this thread and looking at the checklists in Lipset's Volume 3, as I didn't see it on Ted's list.

I'm hesitant to bring these things up, as I don't want to come across as "confrontational". Unfortunately, sometimes my posts read that way when they aren't.

Great thread, love the information !!!

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The RED CROSS (T215-1) set consists of 96 cards. It's essentially comprised of T206 subjects from the 350-only series, 350/460 series,
and 460-only series.....and, one subject from the 150/350 series.

T206 "experts" are quite puzzled that American Lithographic (ALC) included this lone 150/350 series card of Mathewson (white cap) in
the RED CROSS set....and, even more puzzling is why ALC apparently omitted Cobb from their T215 "PIRATE" set.

These cards were issued in 2 series. The 1st series of 48 (or 36) subjects in 1910. The 2nd series of 48 (or 60) subjects in the Spring of 1912.

TED Z

Thanks Ted. One thing that I need clarification on: You list Red Cross and Pirate subjects side-by-side, with 'NO PRINT' indicated for spots where the subjects differ. I know you said '96' was the number printed for each, but does this mean 96 'subjects' , and that the 'No Print' slots were filled with duplicates?

Also, does it imply some similarity in the print process (sheet configuration, etc) between the two?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I was wondering about Smither (sic) Montreal last night as I was reading this thread and looking at the checklists in Lipset's Volume 3, as I didn't see it on Ted's list.

Smith began the 1912 season with Cincinnati and was sold to Montreal in June.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Smith began the 1912 season with Cincinnati and was sold to Montreal in June.

Thanks Tim

Sincerely, Clayton

[Abravefan11]

Here are some key cards that show the differences between the T215-1 RC and Pirate sets.

This group shows subjects that were printed with Red Cross and then later updated for the Pirate set.

Neal Ball
In the RC set his team designation is Cleveland and in the Pirate set it’s Boston American. Ball was purchased by Boston from Cleveland June 25, 1912.

Solly Hofman
In the RC set his team designation is Chicago Nat’l and in the Pirate set it’s Pittsburgh. Hofman was traded to Pittsburgh from Chicago on May 30, 1912.

Harry Krause
In the RC set his team designation is Philadelphia Amer. and in the Pirate set it’s Cleveland. Krause was sold from Philadelphia to Cleveland in July 1912.

Lefty Leifield
In the RC set his team designation is Pittsburgh and in the Pirate set it’s Chicago Nat’l. Leifield was traded from Pittsburgh to Chicago May 30, 1912.

Barney Pelty
In the RC set his team designation is St. Louis Amer. And in the Pirate set it’s Washington. Pelty was sold by St. Louis to Washington June 11, 1912.



This group is the opposite of the one above. The Pirate team designations reflect where the subject played prior to where they played on the Red Cross designation.

Harry Lord
In the RC set his team designation is Chicago Amer. and in the Pirate set it’s Boston Amer. Lord was traded from Boston to Chicago August 9, 1910.

Topsy Hartsel
In the RC set his team designation is Toledo and in the Pirate set it’s Philadelphia Amer. Hartsel played for Philadelphia in 1911 and managed Toledo in 1912.

Harry Steinfeldt
In the RC set his team designation is St. Louis Nat’l and in the Pirate set it’s Chicago Nat’l. Steinfeldt played for Cubs in 1911 and was purchased by St. Paul in June of that year. He was signed by St. Louis in March 1912.

Gabby Street
In the RC set his team designation is NY Nat’l and in the Pirate set it’s Washington. Street was traded by Washington to New York February 17, 1912.

[Abravefan11]

One other subject that is important to the Pirate set is Bobby Byrne. There are two variations of this card. One with a Pittsburgh team caption and the other with a St. Louis team caption. Byrne was traded from St. Louis to Pittsburgh in August 1909. The early Pirate printing appears to be a reuse of the T206 images exactly as they were. The later Pirate printing appears to have been updated to where players were the second half of 1912.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

It's my opinion that all of the T215-1's were issued in 1912. A year after the conclusion of the T206 set and after the breakup of the ATC trust.

Hey Tim

You are waffling....a week ago (per above quote), you stated that all the RED CROSS cards were produced in a single printing.

So, what makes you agree with what most of us veteran collectors have always known ? That the evidence clearly indicates that there was a 1910 printing,
followed by a Spring 1912 printing of the T215-1 cards ?

You reminds us of a Massachusetts politician who first voted against a bill, then voted for it


Whatever, it surely is appreciated the team change info that you have provided. It was the reason that motivated me to start this thread.
But, I have a question....have all these team changes been confirmed on actual cards, or are some hearsay ?

Furthermore, it is my understanding that a total of 96 subjects were printed and issued in the RED CROSS set. Your list is missing 4 subjects.
Any of the following are possible candidates........

Evans
Evers
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell
Summers
Thomas


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

So, what makes you agree with what most of us veteran collectors have always known ? That the evidence clearly indicates that there was a 1910 printing,
followed by a Spring 1912 printing of the T215-1 cards ?

I don't agree that any of the T215-1's were printed in 1910. I still believe the same thing that's in my quote you referenced. I'm not sure what led you to draw the conclusion that I have changed my opinion, but I haven't.

[ullmandds]

I recently won this t215-1 byrne...as I collect this pose of Byrne with different Louisiana brand backs...so what would the difference between this one and the other Pitt printing? So there is no t215-1 St Louis Byrne as Ted suggests?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

One other subject that is important to the Pirate set is Bobby Byrne. There are two variations of this card. One with a Pittsburgh team caption and the other with a St. Louis team caption. Byrne was traded from St. Louis to Pittsburgh in August 1909. The early Pirate printing appears to be a reuse of the T206 images exactly as they were. The later Pirate printing appears to have been updated to where players were the second half of 1912.

You clearly mention two series printings here. And, to deny that there were two series printings of the RED CROSS issue is flawed thinking.

I reiterate my question from my previous post...."But, I have a question....have all these team changes been confirmed on actual cards, or are some hearsay ?

I ask you this, because I have seen RED CROSS Bobby Byrne with a St Louis NL caption.

But, your list says Pittsburg....something is not jiving here.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

You clearly mention two series printings here. And, to deny that there were two series printings of the RED CROSS issue is flawed thinking.

I'm not denying that there were two printings of T215-1's. I have stated on this board that I believe there were two, both in 1912.

Originally Posted by tedzan

I reiterate my question from my previous post...."But, I have a question....have all these team changes been confirmed on actual cards, or are some hearsay ?

I ask you this, because I have seen RED CROSS Bobby Byrne with a St Louis NL caption.

But, your list says Pittsburg....something is not jiving here.


TED Z

You can verify the Byrne T215-1 Pittsburgh by looking at post #17 just before yours.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I recently won this t215-1 byrne...as I collect this pose of Byrne with different Louisiana brand backs...so what would the difference between this one and the other Pitt printing? So there is no t215-1 St Louis Byrne as Ted suggests?

Peter - If a St. Louis Byrne is out there I haven't seen it. I'd admittedly be surprised if there was a St. Louis variation, but anything is possible.

[ullmandds]

well I'm kinda hoping there is not a byrne st louis out there too!!!!

[Mikehealer]

Hi Ted, I don't believe Evers is in the Red Cross type 1 set. I certainly have never seen or heard of one, but I'm proven wrong on a daily basis. I would love to see a scan if anyone has one. I look for and research his cards from time to time.
Thanks for sharing your information Ted and Tim.

And by the way nice card Pete.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Thanks Ted. One thing that I need clarification on: You list Red Cross and Pirate subjects side-by-side, with 'NO PRINT' indicated for spots where the subjects differ. I know you said '96' was the number printed for each, but does this mean 96 'subjects' , and that the 'No Print' slots were filled with duplicates?

Also, does it imply some similarity in the print process (sheet configuration, etc) between the two?

Scott

I formatted these two lists in parallel in order to facilitate comparing the subjects by simply scanning across the page. I can understand, though, what you are saying
that this may be somewhat confusing.

"96" means subjects....as, the sheet size could be any multiple of 12 cards (i.e., 36 cards, 48 cards, 60 cards, 72 cards, 96 cards, etc.).


TED Z

[atx840]

Great card Pete!

[ullmandds]

thanks guys!

Is there a Byrne in t215-2...does anyone know?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Is there a Byrne in t215-2...does anyone know?

Yes. Pittsburgh.

[ullmandds]

thanks Tim...and I believe the t215-Pirate depicts Byrne on st louis.

[Abravefan11]

Actually there are two Pirate variations of Byrne. St. Louis and Pittsburgh.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Chance (yellow portrait)
TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted – I took a look and here is where I see your T215-1 Red Cross checklist and the one I posted don’t jibe.

Not on your list/On mine
Bender (w/ Trees)
Doolan (Fielding)
Leach
Manning
Smithier
Street (Portrait/Catching)*
Tinker (Bat On/Off)*

*You have one Street and one Tinker on your list without identifying the pose. Each have two poses in the T215-1 set according to the list I posted.


On your list/Not on mine
M. Brown (Chicago)
Dubuc
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Herzog New York, NL
Kelley
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Matty McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Mullin (bat)
Oldring (bat)
Purtell

[tedzan]

Tim

OK, I was away.
Now, as I have stated in my initial post here, I expected some differences in my RED CROSS list, since it was an old one.
If we assume that your list is a valid representation of the RED CROSS set....it is still missing 4 subjects.
American Lithographic printed and issued 96 subjects for the RED CROSS set.

Given the "PIRATE" set list, any 4 of the following subjects should fill out your list of 92 subjects to bring us to a total of
96 subjects in the RED CROSS set........

M. Brown (Chicago)
Byrne (St Louis NL) .... ?
Dubuc
Evans
Groom
Herzog New York, NL
Kelley
Harry McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago NL)
Matty McIntyre (Chicago AL)
McLean
Mitchell
Mullin (bat)
Oldring (bat)
Purtell
Summers
Thomas

Thank you for sharing your RED CROSS list with us. We still have 4 subjects that have to be confirmed.


TED Z

[Runscott]

This is great stuff. It is especially cool to see both of you guys (Tim and Ted) sharing your information in this thread and slowly coming to a consensus. Keep it up.

[Abravefan11]

Ted - I have a couple of points to make about your last post and I will separate them to try and avoid any confusion.

Originally Posted by tedzan

If we assume that your list is a valid representation of the RED CROSS set....it is still missing 4 subjects.
American Lithographic printed and issued 96 subjects for the RED CROSS set.

I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that the checklist for the Red Cross set would be complete at 96 subjects. According to the back of the cards the set was "100 Designs." There is no proof yet that all 100 were or were not printed, but with several previously unknown subjects being discovered in recent years, more are certainly a possibility.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Given the "PIRATE" set list, any 4 of the following subjects should fill out your list of 92 subjects to bring us to a total of
96 subjects in the RED CROSS set........

In this quote you're drawing conclusions about the Red Cross set based on information we know about the Pirate set. Due to the many differences in the sets and how I think they were printed, I wouldn't assume that one checklist would have anything to do with the other.

Lastly, like the Red Cross set, new confirmations of Pirate cards have been discovered in the not-so-distant past. So for now we can't be certain that the Pirate checklist is complete at 96 or 97.

[RCMcKenzie]

The lists that I am familiar with show 90 known examples. All of the ones Tim has up there except for a second Doolan and the Manning. I guess the Doolan and Manning are recent discoveries. I always have assumed the set has 100 designs like it says on the card.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I guess the Doolan and Manning are recent discoveries.

They were in "The Louisiana Find" from 2010. REA auctioned them in 2011.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

This is the T215-1 checklist I have and some additional information for the discussion.

32 Howard Chicago Nat'l
33 Huggins (Portrait) St. Louis Nat'l
34 Huggins (Hands at Mouth) St. Louis Nat'l <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ?
35 Hummel Brooklyn

Tim

Huggins (Hands at Mouth) is actually Cincinnati....I have seen this card. Furthermore, a Net54 member that collects T215-1 RED CROSS cards (40% complete set)
has this Huggins (Cinci).

So, is the card you listed a variation, or what ?

I have never seen this Huggins with a St Louis caption. And, the above mentioned Net 54 collector has not either.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tim

Huggins (Hands at Mouth) is actually Cincinnati....I have seen this card. Furthermore, a Net54 member that collects T215-1 RED CROSS cards (40% complete set)
has this Huggins (Cinci).

So, is the card you listed a variation, or what ?

I have never seen this Huggins with a St Louis caption. And, the above mentioned Net 54 collector has not either.


TED Z

It seems out of place for the Huggins team caption to be Cincinnati and goes against anything I have seen, but I guess anything is possible. If your friend owns the card with the Huggins Cincinnati caption, they should be able to answer this definitively for you. Nothing I could post would be more proof than the card itself.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

It seems out of place for the Huggins team caption to be Cincinnati and goes against anything I have seen, but I guess anything is possible. If your friend owns the card with the Huggins Cincinnati caption, they should be able to answer this definitively for you. Nothing I could post would be more proof than the card itself.

Tim

I stated that I have seen this card....but, in your usual self-centered attitude, you are obviously dismissing my input. And, I really resent this.

Furthermore, you are questioning the guy who actually owns this card in his T215 collection. He is a long-time, well-known guy on this forum;
and, lately he very seldom posts. As, he doesn't care for the immature confrontations that have transpired on this forum this past year (or so).


I don't find the difference in team identification on the two Huggins' cards at all going against anything I have noticed about the RED CROSS set.
One group of the cards were printed in 1910 and a 2nd series of cards were printed in the Spring of 1912.

But, if you are content to maintain an inaccurate list, that's your business. You claim to welcome new inputs in your data; but, when given you
choose not accept them !

C'est la vie


TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

t215-2hugginsport.jpgt215hugginsb.jpg




Here is the T215-2 HUGGINS PORT I have. I mostly collect only series 2, but have handled 10-12 type 1 cards without seeing a type 1 Huggins. My checklist was the 15th edition scd which does not list team variations. Lipset's encyclopedia has teams, but does not mention the cincy.

I am assuming this is the type one collection listed on the SGC registry, which is an astounding collection of cards. These cards appear so infrequently that they are almost impossible to fully checklist.

[Abravefan11]

Rob - I'm not sure if when you say you haven't seen a Type 1 Huggins you mean the Hands at Mouth pose or both it and the portrait. Here's a link to the portrait in case you haven't seen it.

This cards team designation is St. Louis, the same as all other cards from the issues in question I have seen.

Ted - Nothing about my post was disrespectful to you in anyway. As I said, a Cincinnati variation seems to contradict everything else about the set in my opinion. So starting from that position I think most people would understand why I would like to see a scan. I'd love for this longtime member to post one. Perhaps you could post it for him?

[RCMcKenzie]

Tim,

Thanks for the link to the H&S auction. That was a great card. What's funny is that they sent me that catalog and it is here in my office somewhere, but I never looked at it because I was on a collecting hiatus in 2009.

I had not seen the T215-1 Huggins port until now, and I have not seen a T215-1 Huggins HM.


.............

Ted Z,

If you could get a scan from the T215-1 collector, then that would be great. I would like to see it also. If not, thanks for the update anyway.

[edhans]

Presented without comment...

[Abravefan11]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for posting that and confirming the team designation. I updated the checklist I posted.

[edhans]

My pleasure, Tim. It's pretty rare the I actually have something to add to the scholarship on these boards. Thanks for all your efforts.

[Abravefan11]

That's another piece to the puzzle and a great looking card as well.

[atx840]

Great card Ed

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Every subjects team designation in the T215-1 set is where they were in the first few months of 1912 with the exception of two. The two are Howard-Chicago Nat'l and Manning-New York Nat'l. Howard did not play for Chicago after 1909 and Manning did not play for New York after 1910.

The quote is from a post I made earlier in the the thread. It can be amended to add Huggins (Hands At Mouth)-Cincinnati. Huggins was traded by Cincinnati to St. Louis February 3, 1910.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by edhans

Presented without comment...

Thanks Ed....great looking card, too.

I think we can conclude that this dispute has been settled.


TED Z