S74 Silks: Up, Down, or Who Cares?

[Leon]

Nice write up Bob. I have heard there are only 3 known S74 silks with the Helmar back currently known. Two of them are Cobb and one is a common. The other Cobb went for $6500+ in a Lipset auction and this one shown was a little less than that, but not a lot . This Turkey Red Parent is an SGC80 which is one of the highest graded ones I have seen. I think there was a Red Sun Cobb in an 84 holder in a Huggins and Scott auction some time back. Large scan because it can be seen better an there aren't any other scans in this thread. I love the misfit ones and the Cobby that is purple'ish/mauve.....

[Paul S]

Oh my, now I feel that I have to have some. By they way, if not holdered how do people store them?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Paul S

Oh my, now I feel that I have to have some. By they way, if not holdered how do people store them?

Penny sleeve and top loader for me...just like cards.

[kilo]

Penny sleeve and top loader for me...just like cards.

+1 here too....

--mike.

[rsst206]

Hi Bob,
Nice write up. I have been seriously collecting these for almost 10 yrs.
Every graded one I purchase gets removed. Trying to do a master set of both
whites and colored. 1100 different and counting. I am such a hoarder can't really seem to get rid of duplicates. But I think its about time. I have over 500 upgrades a lot of whites with out backs and around 100 with backs.
Eyes are getting bad and with bad scans I seem to buy the same colored one over and over. Here are some Old Mills.

I honestly wouldn't waste my money on grading these. Like stated above, haven't seen them reprinted but have seen and purchased graded trimmed ones. The grading companies who grade them are all over the board.

Any board members have any that they want to sell or trade
Ronaldscottskaggs@gmail.com

[BobC]

Hi Ron,

You and I have talked in the past and locked horns on going after some silks over the years. Back when Fleabay would actually show other bidders names I used to come in second to you so many times it wasn't funny. I'm as bad as you in regards to the silks but, only have about half as many as you have. Still don't have every single one of the white silks with a paper ad attached. Keep looking but, the ones I'm still missing never seem to come up with the paper still attached.

Leon, Understand about not going too crazy in collecting type cards. Just thought you might want to know that the Turkey Red silks that have a border on the advertising back do come in two different colors, the blue you show in your scan, and then a black version like the other silks you have. Never seen different colored backs for any of the other versions of the silks, they are in black ink.

As for the crocheted silk I have, you're right, they don't go for much money and you do occasionally see some silks sewn onto pillows and covers and such that come up for sale now and then. Always surprised there isn't more interest in them.

No one has taken a stab at my question yet about how you can tell if someone tries to use a paper backing from one of the actress silks and stick it on a ball player silk instead to try to increase the value. Anyone have an idea?

BobC

[t213]

I'm a closet silk hoarder and have been picking them up for the last couple years.

Andy

[Ease]

I asked Archive, and he says actress backs are a speckled cardboard, while ballplayer backs are smooth.

[BobC]

Hi Leon,

I remember that Helmar backed Cobb and was talking to the owner of it who said I had dibs if the current person he was negotiating with to buy it fell through. Of course you were the person he was talking about. LOL

Still, I don't even think these S74 silks could be faked today. That being said, why get them graded? Only thing I would possibly worry about is if someone tried to take a paper backing off one silk and re-attach it to another silk. You know, like pulling one off an Orval Overall and sticking it on a Cobb or Mathewson. Not sure of the composition of the adhesives they used back then but, I'd guess it was a simple water based glue formula. I've often wondered if someone just took some Elmer's glue and stuck a back on an S74 and sent it off to SGC or Beckett for grading, would they even be able to tell if the card had been re-backed?

Besides the common images the silks have with the T205s and T202s that make them interesting and attractive, another big factor in their appeal, at least in my opinion, is the different material color and ink combinations that can occur. There were three different ink colors used to produde the images on both the white and colored silks. Blue, brown and what I term a reddish-brown rust color. On the white, ad-backed silks it is really clear and easy to see the differences. What gets really interesting is when you cross over to the colored silks and see the myriad of material colors they used and how they match up with the three different ink colors used to imprint the images with. Some of the combinations can be ghastly, like a light lime-green color silk with a rust colored ink image. If you come across one of the dark red colored silks that is printed using the rust colored ink, you almost can't even see the image. Still other color and ink combinations go together very well and I think add to the visual attractiveness of the silk.

I often wondered if it was possible to find an example of each player in each color combination for the white, ad-backed silks. Would be an interesting master-type set. And then what if you tried to do such a master type set for all Old Mills backs and then another for Turkey Red backs. I wouldn't even want to think about trying that with the colored version silks. I've seen so many different material colors and variations, who knows how many distinct, separate material colors there actually were, or if it is even possible to find an example of every player in every color. Back in that day when material was dyed, it was most likely done in lots, and even when a company produced another lot of supposedly the same color material, there would likley be subtle color differences with no two lots ever being exactly the same. There are definitely some colors that were used more than others, such as light blue and pink, as opposed to more obscure colors like a light lime-green or the dark reds. The collecting base for them is so thin that I don't think you really see a premium attached to rarer colors but, maybe someday if this issue ever becomes a little more mainstream with collectors.

What I also like is when you can find actual examples of the silks used for their intended purposes, in pillows, covers and such. If I get a chance to I'll see if I can scan in this one particular silk I have where someone crocheted a very intricate black border around the entire silk. Kind of looks like it could then be used as a doily or coaster. The S74s in your type collection are very interesting, especially the miscut or off-center ones you have. Those are very rare when it comes to the silks and I've never seen others than the ones you have.

Thanks for showing them again.

Bob C

[Leon]

You are welcome Bob. And thanks for chiming in and giving some very good and experienced thoughts. You have posted more today than you have in the last 3.5 yrs on the board.

Yes, when I got the Helmar I also got almost all of that collectors collection of them, Red Suns and all. Of course, as always, I cherry picked my faves and sold the rest, just as most addicts would do. I don't think I have ever sent any in to be graded and my graded ones came that way when I got them. I just picked up a brown/rust color Bender and might get around to scanning it and posting it too. Since almost all of my cards are on my website they are already scanned so it's easy to pop them on the board when we talk about them. Plus almost every day we have new registrants so it's likely some haven't seen them before. Once again, thanks for your educated thoughts on the subject.

[BobC]

Sorry I don't post more Leon. Don't really do any scanning and most of the time everyone wants to see pics of items so they know what you're talking about. I should figure it out one of these days and I could show you what I'm talking about as far as the crocheted S74 I have.

By the way, are the S74s in your scan all the ones you've kept for your collection? I know you're a type collector and it looks like you tried to get one of every different back type for the white S74s. If those are all you have there is variant you may be missing. The Turkey Reds came with either a bordered or borderless advertising back. The bordered version you have shows a decidedly bluish ink tone/tint to it. There is also a definite black ink tone/tint version of the Turkey Red bordered backs. As far as I know and have ever seen, all the other advertising backs on the S74 white version silks are only printed in black ink. The bordered Turkey Red backs are the only ones I've ever come across that are printed in two different ink colors/tones. Not that you need to acquire another silk for your collection but.........check and see if you don't already have a black bordered Turkey Red back to complement that blue ink one in your scan.

BobC

[BobC]

Leon,

Going back to some of my comments about possibly having the paper advertising backs removed from one silk and re-glued onto another, and how difficult it might be to detect, there's also the possibility of someone picking up some of the actress silks from this same series and removing those backs and attaching them to the baseball player silks instead. As you can easily see from your own scan, it clearly indicates these silks are part of a baseball - actress series. The actress silks go for almost nothing so someone could pick up backed ones and then try to remove the backs and re-glue them onto ball player silks to increase their value. My quiz question for you, or anyone else reading this thread, is, how can you definitely tell if someone tries to use the paper backing from an actress silk to put on a ball player silk instead?

There is a way to tell. Let's see if you or anyone else knows.

BobC

[BobC]

Here's the crocheted S74 I've got. It's actually a colored version silk with the edges turned over so if you flip it you can see the tobacco brand and factory info on the back. Sorry for the scan size, never did this before and wasn't sure how to edit the size down.

BobC

[Leon]

Hi Bob
You mentioned a black bordered Turkey Red. Nope, don't have one of those. I only get "so" crazy with things. I imagine sometime I might pick one up but it's not really a major issue for me. I am sure there could be some other minor variation I am missing also. I was almost thinking you didn't scroll over far enough to see the ones on the far right, but then I saw you mention "blue" bordered. I was thinking you were saying only a bordered vs non-bordered Turkey Red, which I have covered. That is a neat crocheted-type one you showed too. I have seen several sewn items with silks on them and we have had a few in our Brockelman & Luckey Auctions.. I think we might even have one already consigned and coming up in our next auction. They go for almost nothing compared to a lot of things we collect. I still love oddities and really enjoy the few colored ones that have the mfg and factory number in the same place. My favorite one is the Miller where the silk ran out and part of the front was printed on the back cardboard. I love that thing> .