OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[glynparson]

Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me if you are so ignorant as to not think Bonds was a hall of famer pre steroids, in fact he was an alltime great presteroids not just a marginal HOF'er.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Your opinion means absolutely nothing to me if you are so ignorant as to not think Bonds was a hall of famer pre steroids, in fact he was an alltime great presteroids not just a marginal HOF'er.

So because your opinion must be right, what year did Bonds first start using steroids then???? So say if Bonds started taking steroids in 1990 in which he won his first MVP. So he'd then be a hall of famer/all-time great based on his first three years in the majors... Simple answer NO.

You can't say he would have been a hall of famer/all-time great pre-steroids, because we don't know WHEN Bonds started taking steroids.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

So because your opinion must be right, what year did Bonds first start using steroids then???? So say if Bonds started taking steroids in 1990 in which he won his first MVP. So he'd then be a hall of famer/all-time great based on his first three years in the majors... Simple answer NO.

You can't say he would have been a hall of famer/all-time great pre-steroids, because we don't know WHEN Bonds started taking steroids.

So what if Bonds started taking steroids in 2004, is his prior numbers not good enough?...Simple answer, YES.

[glynparson]

In 1999, this is not nor should it be news to anyone that has closely followed this story or Bonds's career. He along with Griffey Jr are the premiere 5 tool players of their generation, The Mays and Mantle of their eras.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by glynparson

In 1999, this is not nor should it be news to anyone that has closely followed this story or Bonds's career.

Exactly, because he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa and the great HR chase.

[EvilKing00]

lets just take this 1st ballot as a question here. 1st ballot 1st year.

UMMMM - so if bonds dosnt get in, and clemens dosnt get in, does piazza get in???

if is wasnt for the drug issue all 3 are 1st ballot HOF, but with clemens and bonds assosicated, they may not. piazza wasnt involved (apparantly) but ..... he probably was.

[barrysloate]

I agree with Bosoxfan- you can't close the Hall to a whole generation of players. Especially when some of those players, such as Bonds and Clemens, are among the greatest in the history of the game. And what's the solution? Admitting mediocre to good players simply because they didn't juice. That just turns the HOF into a farce.

And I still think the two threads should be merged.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I agree with Bosoxfan- you can't close the Hall to a whole generation of players. Especially when some of those players, such as Bonds and Clemens, are among the greatest in the history of the game. And what's the solution? Admitting mediocre to good players simply because they didn't juice. That just turns the HOF into a farce.

And I still think the two threads should be merged.

Okay, I'll start the merge process by bringing the following part of the discussion over here.

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Not tongue in cheek, but cynical. All I see around me are people cheating, in every walk of life. Yes, I absolutely deplore it. But to deny a player into the HOF because he took a drug that built up his muscles is plainly hypocritical. Bonds was the greatest hitter I ever saw, possibly one of the top five all time. Clemens was one of the greatest pitchers of all time. To deny them entrance, but to allow a less than stellar Bobby Doerr in, is a mockery of the whole process.

Gaylord Perry pitched nearly his whole career with a dab of vaseline under his cap. It's against the rules to put a foreign substance on a ball, and nearly every pitch he threw was a greaseball. He's in the Hall. And his stats don't hold a candle to Clemens.

Let's stop pretending baseball is some lily white enterprise and let these guys in. If you want you can affix a scarlet letter "C" for "cheater"on their plaques. That way the fans can tell the good guys from the bad guys.

We have been making a mockery of the process since shortly after it began, by letting in less than stellar players. Too many of them were friends with the voters and players like Albert Belle, who pissed everyone off, will never get voted in. Guys like Bonds are being denied because what they did is considered a very significant violation of the rules by the voters.

It's all about the voters - write a few letters to them, letting them know that you think steroid users are okay and should be allowed in. It would be interesting to hear their explanations as to why Niekro, Sutton and Rizzuto are in, but great steroid users like McGwire, Bonds and Sosa will not get their vote.

[71buc]

I am NOT a Bonds fan. That being said he was not ever found to be guilty of using PEDs. Photographs reveal dramatic changes to his physique begining around 1999. If considered as evidence the photos raise suspicion but that is all (see Ryan Franklin). I think his overall game declined after 1999. He was far more of a complete player prior to that IMO. That could be attributed to age as much as the rapid changes to his body. I think that his pre 1999 numbers were HOF worthy. Those years alone his ability would land him in any discussion regarding the greatest players of all time. When he reached his second prime thats an entirely different story. Nonetheless, he belongs in Cooperstown next to my favorite players Clemente and Aaron. His inclusion does not deminish either of them. His numbers will always be looked at with a jaundiced eye by everyone who watched that generation of players.

I am a firm believer that if every player from that generation was honest about PED usage we would find more pitchers than hitters used them. PEDs make much more sense for a pitcher not in terms in size gains or increased velocity but in their value to aid in recovery especially for relievers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

His game declined after 1999???? He had by any measure one of the greatest five year stretches in history if not the greatest including 4 straight mvp awards.

[71buc]

His overall game declined. No dispute over his offense post 1998 those numbers are unbelievable. His defense was limited and his speed absent. He no longer was the 4 tool player he had been. I cannot say he had five tools ever as his arm was questionable just ask Sid Bream

[Peter_Spaeth]

fair enough but with those numbers it seems a minor quibble

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Photographs reveal dramatic changes to his physique begining around 1999. He was far more of a complete player prior to that IMO. That could be attributed to age as much as the rapid changes to his body.

So what do you think about Thome? Thome was a stick when he came up, now look at him...Just cause a guy 'blew up' doesn't necessarily mean they juiced, and Thome has never been questioned because he's never been as high profile as Bonds, A-Rod etc.

I agree e was a more complete player in the aspects of his five tools, he did it all, but he did more damage at the plate later and got on base and produced and drove in more runs at an absurd rate.

[kcohen]

The HOF should impose a maximum allowable hat size of 9 3/8 for entry eligibility. Bonds would likely not meet that criterion.