Helmar Boston Garter Cobb and others...

[Chris-Counts]

Charles,

I don't believe your cards detract from the hobby at all. Like Greg's paintings, they represent some of the best baseball art I've ever seen, and they do a remarkable job of recreating in color an era we typically see only in black and white. I'm quite familiar with your images because I very much enjoy looking at them ...

But I don't understand creating such limited prints runs — and with such vague language about the numbers: "No more than just 6 of this card will be made and sold during a 12 month period. Most likely the number will be only 3-4."

As for mass-production, I recall when Helmar cards first came out, they were printed in fairly large numbers and were very affordable. The images were great, but the production was poor. It seemed like cards were made from styrofoam.

Keep in mind, this is a hobby that's been hit card by many scandals (see grading companies, auction houses, fake cards, fake rarities, altered cards, etc.), so collectors — including myself — are bound to be wary of something that was produced yesterday and sells for a pretty penny.

[RCMcKenzie]

ljack.jpg


Charles Sirraffles,

I like the artwork and would be a buyer if the medium were s/n lithograph in mint condition. I am not really a big fan of professionally distressed cards because they remind me of cards like this Lone Jack reprint. When I look at it I almost think I'm looking at a vintage card. I think you've obviously done well as getting 61% of people to approve of something is quite an accomplishment.

[Paul S]

del...(bad idea)

[insidethewrapper]

I could see many people buying these with the intent of reselling to novice collectors as vintage items. Why would they be listed on ebay in any catagory but modern ? That is also deceiving the public listing them in "pre-WWII" listings. I don't think they should be printed, that's my vote.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, a reprint by any other name is still a reprint, and manufactured scarcity doesn't do much for me either. But if people like them, that's great, everyone's mileage varies.

[insidethewrapper]

What has the maker of these cards have to say as to why they are listed in the "pre WWII" listings on eBay ? They are not "pre war " cards. This only misrepresents the product. Makes collectors think they are old. Bad for the hobby.

[HRBAKER]

I disagree, if I was the maker I would list them where the people who would most likely be interested in buying them browse, the prewar section. I see no intent to deceive.

I've bought a few, had absolutely no doubt they were new fantasy-type pieces and most likely would not have seen them initially if he listed them anywhere else.

[barrysloate]

I pretty much agree with Peter's assessment. Although I voted don't like, they really are kind of nice looking. But I don't like the manufactured scarcity angle. If you want to reprint something have a print run of 500 or so and sell them for say $19.95 each. That's the whole point of a reprint- to make what might otherwise be a very expensive piece affordable to anyone who wants one. To make a reprint and have it as scarce as some of the originals it copies seems kind of phony to me. But I have no problem with the artwork, there is a definite skill level there.

Edited to add they are technically not a reprint of any known card, but one of a familiar design.

[sirraffles]

I think that some people "get it" and others don't. Rather than rehash aspects covered in old threads, I'll leave it at that. Thank you, everyone, for weighing in. Every opinion has been valuable! Charles

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I pretty much agree with Peter's assessment. Although I voted don't like, they really are kind of nice looking. But I don't like the manufactured scarcity angle. If you want to reprint something have a print run of 500 or so and sell them for say $19.95 each. That's the whole point of a reprint- to make what might otherwise be a very expensive piece affordable to anyone who wants one. To make a reprint and have it as scarce as some of the originals it copies seems kind of phony to me. But I have no problem with the artwork, there is a definite skill level there.

Edited to add they are technically not a reprint of any known card, but one of a familiar design.

Barry I agree that they are nice looking and of high quality, but to me that's beside the point. Perhaps modern-produced might be a better term than reprint, but either way they are not of the period and therefore, in my opinion, no better than a reprint and in a way even more gimmicky. Pseudo-vintage, one might call it. Just my opinion and not looking to convince anyone. As Hal Lewis used to say, buy what you like, but this thread invited opinions.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Edited to add they are technically not a reprint of any known card, but one of a familiar design.

Not true Barry. The '33 Lajoie is a reprint. I'm guessing there are others, but I don't really follow the Helmars that closely.

[sirraffles]

No, that Lajoie is not a reprint. It is from a painting that we did where the customer specifically asked for a painting of that card. Looks pretty good, eh?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry I agree that they are nice looking and of high quality, but to me that's beside the point. Perhaps modern-produced might be a better term than reprint, but either way they are not of the period and therefore, in my opinion, no better than a reprint and in a way even more gimmicky. Pseudo-vintage, one might call it. Just my opinion and not looking to convince anyone. As Hal Lewis used to say, buy what you like, but this thread invited opinions.

+1

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

No, that Lajoie is not a reprint. It is from a painting that we did where the customer specifically asked for a painting of that card. Looks pretty good, eh?

Yes, almost exactly like the card. Not comparing it closely to an authentic one, it certainly fooled me.

I'm surprised how many others also have sleep issues

[barrysloate]

The 1933G Lajoie was available to anyone who mailed in requesting one. The only reason it is so scarce is that only a limited number of people cared enough to ask. If more collectors wanted them, they would have made enough to satisfy the demand.

In the case of these Helmar cards, if only four or so of each is made, there are nowhere enough to fill the demand. Thus an artifical scarcity has been created. There's a distinction.

[dabigyankeeman]

I love the look of the Helmar cards, but i consider them modern cards and would never pay the price for what they are going for. If they were $9.99 i would collect the Yankees in Helmar, but not at the insane prices people are bidding them up to.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The 1933G Lajoie was available to anyone who mailed in requesting one. The only reason it is so scarce is that only a limited number of people cared enough to ask. If more collectors wanted them, they would have made enough to satisfy the demand.

In the case of these Helmar cards, if only four or so of each is made, there are nowhere enough to fill the demand. Thus an artifical scarcity has been created. There's a distinction.

Barry, I wasn't referring to scarcity - I was referring to the actual Helmar copy of the '33 Lajoie, which we've been told is made from a painting of a real card (which is also basically a 'painting', but of a photo).

[barrysloate]

Oh, the Helmar one. Sorry about that.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by Runscott

This one might involve just a tad of 'deception', but if I were collecting the '33 Goudey set, it would make a good filler:

1933 Goudey Lajoie

I had decided that this card WOULD make a good filler in my progressing 33 goudey set and was in the process of psyching myself up for a last second bid tonight, when it dawned on me that I should check the size.
These are 3"x3.6" inches according to the helmar website. "real" R319's are 2-3/8" x 2-7/8".

Just thought I'd post that as a warning in case anyone else had decided to use this card in their 33 set.

[Eric72]

Just my inexperienced and very humble opinion here...the Helmar version lacks something which appeared on the original and should be fairly easy to spot...unless I am much mistaken. No confusing their version with the Goudey Lajoie.



(I do not work for Helmar, know anyone from Helmar, own stock in the company, plan to enter into any position regarding equitable securities offered by the company, if any, within the next 72 hours, etc., etc., etc.)

Oh, additionally, the card pictured is (clearly) not mine.

Best,

Eric

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Just my inexperienced and very humble opinion here...the Helmar version lacks something which appeared on the original and should be fairly easy to spot...unless I am much mistaken. No confusing their version with the Goudey Lajoie.

(I do not work for Helmar, know anyone from Helmar, own stock in the company, plan to enter into any position regarding equitable securities offered by the company, if any, within the next 72 hours, etc., etc., etc.)

Oh, additionally, the card pictured is (clearly) not mine.

Best,

Eric

Eric, you are right, and perhaps that's enough for some people.

I don't know if you were around for the huge fuss I created when I tried to create a set of Old Judge reprints. Even having them larger with stamps on the back AND an added identifying mark on the front, was not enough for some board members.

This Lajoie is damned close to the original, the same size, AND distressed.

[z28jd]

Scott check out the post above by tonyo, the Lajoie isn't the same size as the original

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Scott check out the post above by tonyo, the Lajoie isn't the same size as the original

Edited - thinking about this, I have no idea why I even posted on the subject. I have no plans to buy a Helmar, no concerns over any confusion anyone else may have over these, and the artwork is very impressive. I think it's kind of weird that Helmar would create a painting of a miniaturized painting, then miniaturize their own into a similar-sized card, but there are weirder things occurring in our hobby.

So....carry on.

[tonyo]

I voted yes, I like them, because I do think they are nice artwork. However, like alot of others, I'd rather put larger money into cards that were actually made in the period they depict. I do have some reprint sets (52 topps, t206, CJ, T3, goodwin) but I paid less for all of those than the Lajoie finished last night.

Regardless, since I do like the cards, I thought the helmar Lajoie would be a nice replacement for a card I will never own as opposed to your run-of-the-mill reprint. (despite the missing lines in the background - thanks Eric, I didn't notice that, and a different # on the back)

I wouldn't have won it anyway since I had decided to bid $50 max and it ended at $56.........

[HRBAKER]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/H813-4-Bosto...item1c2df73880

And only 6 days to go!
YIKES!

[savedfrommyspokes]

The premise that these cards, in some cases, command high premiums is due to their alleged scarcity. I have not collected any of these cards, so my question would be how hard would these cards be to duplicated by someone other than the original producer, in effect reducing their scarcity and diluting the value, and offering the reproductions in a secondary market or even ebay?

[ullmandds]

that's in insane hammer price on that one!!!

I've always thought whoever is making these is very smart...they are beautiful...well made...as advertised...BUT...i can't believe the prices people are paying for them...people are paying vintage prices...which in my opinion is stupid! over time it is my opinion they will depreciate in value!

The creator of these cards has mimicked the business model of the us govt...it's like printing money!!!!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

The premise that these cards, in some cases, command high premiums is due to their alleged scarcity. I have not collected any of these cards, so my question would be how hard would these cards be to duplicate by someone other than the original producer, in effect reducing their scarcity and diluting the value, and offering the reproductions in a secondary market or even ebay?

Besides the legality issues those are some very nice fantasy cards and I am not sure how good a reprint would look. Almost $400 for a fantasy card is a lot but it really is a great looking card. They aren't for me but there seems to be a very strong market for these particular ones. Kudos to the maker of them.

[jbbama]

While some are very cool, i also see them as simply art. I do not think they should be listed (catagorized) the way they are. They have however created a nice little niche for themselves.

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

that's in insane hammer price on that one!!!

I've always thought whoever is making these is very smart...they are beautiful...well made...as advertised...BUT...i can't believe the prices people are paying for them...people are paying vintage prices...which in my opinion is stupid! over time it is my opinion they will depreciate in value!

The creator of these cards has mimicked the business model of the us govt...it's like printing money!!!!

Insane prices, and check out the insane bidding patterns in his auctions. Hilarious in some cases !