T206 Resource, I would appreciate an opinion on this one

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I am sure Scott Forest and Wonka will be posting, just thought I would ask for your opinion as well.

I feel honored that you have mentioned my name in the same sentence as someone whose opinion I respect. At the moment, all cardboard still looks alike to me, but when that changes I'll start jumping into the frays again.

[T206Collector]

I think this card has to be analyzed with a very zealous eye. Usually the trim jobs to be concerned of are on the cards with four right angles. A fraudster is not doing his job well if this one is trimmed. He has left himself plenty of space to hack again more carefully, to be more deceptive and make more money. Why didn't he use it?

In any event, the best way to check for trimming in T206 cards is to look at all four sides of the card -- something you cannot do with a front/back scan. You really have to examine the edge cut, cardboard striations, beveling, etc. Or didn't everyone read that article in SGC Collector Magazine a few years back?

Do I think there is a lot to be concerned about here? Yes.

Do I think PSA have monkey graders? You betcha!

Would I make a claim one way or another about this one based on scan alone? No chance.

To declare a trim here so matter-of-factly would ignore the lack of required evidence to prove a trim.

[Texxxx]

I am very new to collecting prewar cards compared to most here and am loving getting educated about them. I did not know that when they cut the 206 cards that they had the ability to cut them with perfectly square corners. I love learning these things.

[wonkaticket]

Ahhhh lighting fires tonight huh Danny, you confrontational SOB.

Ok here we go…the card in question…simply put looks goofy to me too.

Anytime a card looks that goofy I assume the same trimmed. Seen my fair share of odd cut T206’s but this one doesn’t fit the mold of those for me. With that said if I went back in a time machine tonight and pulled that card from a pack of smokes I would be a bit bummed as the ski jump top would drive me nuts.

Now onto something I can’t let slide…Ted really? You busting balls about flubbed lists on T206 conformations is like Ike Turner giving marriage advice. Guy you have been caught in so many tall tales half the time I’m not sure if I’m on Net54 or pulling up a chair for some county fair pie in lake Wobegon with Garrison Keillor.

As for the Cobb Red Hindu I too think the card was from the good ol’ rebacker. However I have a feeling why the guys may have left it on their list is it’s a possible combo…but I don’t know as I can’t speak for them.

As for my tenure in the hobby I’ve been in for a few months now. I'm doing well due to the online classes I’ve been taking and the mail order pamphlets and books on tape…that Leon puts out. I hope to graduate next month with decent grades.

Cheers,

John

[Ronnie73]

First, I have posted this in both threads about this subject. Also, lets keep this a friendy debate. I'm not an expert but just sharing what I do know.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=152007 T206 Resource, I would appreciate an opinion on this one
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151903 I wonder if the dude with the paper cutter lost his finger on this one?


I can understand everyones feeling about a diamond cut needing to match the top and bottom and i'm not going to say wether the card was trimmed or not but I will tell you what I do know. First let me say that I personally don't buy diamond cuts with one strait edge and one angled edge because they always look possibly trimmed when in the holder and just don't look good to me. I also have seen more SGC holders (mostly older ones) with numerically graded cards with one straight edge and one angle edge than PSA over the years. Over 20 years ago, I worked at a print shop and all the equipment was early 1900's. I worked the cutter alot and depending on how much paper was under the clamp, as the blade sliced down, you could get a fanning of the paper. Now by experiece on how the cutter works, I can tell you that the T206's were first cut in vertical strips because you never see a diamond cut on the sides. This is because the paper clamp has the full length of the sheet pile to hold onto. After that, the strips were put into the clamp, one strip pile at a time. The pile would be no more than 2 inches high because its hand opperated and the more you cut at once, the harder it is. This is where the fanning or diamond cut happens. The clamp only has the width of the card to hold onto. During the first cut, you would put the strip pile flat against the fence and clamp down. As the wedged blade cuts down, the pile can twist under the clamp and the cards closest to the bottom would have the greatest degee of angle. Now remember that the pile started with a straight edge and now a few cards from the bottom of the pile have a diamond cut edge on the top border of the card. This scenario would create the card in question. Now for matching top and bottom diamond cuts. Once an angled cut happens and you put that angled cut against the cutting fence, you continue to get the same angle within the rest of that strip of cards.

Below is a copy of an older post I wrote. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=143487 How T206's were cut?

I believe the cards were cut with the machine pictured in the link. I've used one of these cutters at an old print shop. There is an adjustable fence on the back side of the cutter and clamp. I believe the card sheets were cut first into vertical strips. After cutting off the border scrap, the fence would be adjusted 1 7/16 inches from the blade and then a stack of sheets maybe measuring 1 to 2 inches thick with a scrap piece of thick cardboard on the bottom and top of the pile would be slid into the front of the cutter. Adjust the pile smoothly against the fence and then turn the clamp wheel down tight. This is why a piece of scrap cardboard is used, so there are no clamp impressions on the cards. Then pull the handle down and cut the pile. Release the clamp and put the cut strip aside and continue to repeat the process until a good quantity are cut into strips. Now to cut the strips into single cards. Adjust the fence to 2 5/8 inches and now cut them into singles. I believe it was done exactly in this process because when cutting small strips of anything on one of these cutters, the clamp does not have enough surface area to clamp onto and the pile tends to sometimes fan out a bit. This would be the reason we see some T206's with the tops and bottoms cut at equal angles known to many as diamond cuts. The cards could not be cut any other way because if you follow a diamond cut angle through a whole sheet, the cut will be maybe an inch or so into the picture on one side of the sheet and on the other side the cut will be between the boarders of two cards. So first they were cut into vertical strips and then cut into singles. Hope this is not too confusing. I could always draw a diagram to explain the diamond cut angles.

http://www.bookbindersmuseum.com/ind...id=1:equipment

[three25hits]

I like untrimmed applesauce

[Gradedcardman]

When I was younger, the word meant something totally different...

[Ladder7]

Ronnie, You explained the cutting process well. I barely recall in middle school, setting type and cutting business cards, tickets etc in the antique print shop. I recall that happening to us on occasion, when we tried to cut the sheets. The bottom row of business cards would show a straight(er) edge

A question that you may not be able to answer, With baseball card sheets. Would the outer four edges of the sheets be cut after printing?