Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

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Originally Posted by BobC

Did you actually read what I posted? For example, I said why there probably aren't any real great short pitchers in the majors and how if there were, they would be real freaks. Yet your very first question was where all the great '5"5 pitchers were then. You didn't seem to understand my points at all. Like I never said Feller and Ryan were freaks because of their size, it was because of their speed. Yet you seemed to be arguing against me, but using my own argument. Exactly why I was asking in that earlier post what your point(s) was.

And your saying that elite pitchers from way back in the day like Feller wouldn't do as well today because more pitchers throw as fast he does now, isn't proof that he still wouldn't be elite today. Typical argument that can't be proven either way that I'm sick and tired of hearing.

Yes, I read your post and it did not refute the size factor, so I again said, if size didn't matter, then where are the five foot five pitchers because you somehow came up with the notion that the best size for a pitcher is six foot tall or six foot one, which is wrong. So you recognized size on one hand and then made a comment like that to seemingly refute it, and that notion was wrong.

Maybe in 1940 the best size was six feet tall because that is how tall most of them were. That bar has been raised.

I said from the very start that Feller and Ryan were marvels(back then) based on their VELOCITY, not their size, so you sir are the one not reading what was written. And no, their command was not good enough for them to be elite in the modern age because their fastballs were not as special anymore because half the league had the same fastball. Still great, but not with the other stuff the pitchers have now, including superior size.

But again, to your main point about size not mattering and the point that you think six feet tall is the optimal height of a pitcher. Not sure where you got those notions, maybe they are from the same people that think size does not matter in baseball and that strength training was bad for baseball, which were both wrong.

The HOF pitchers(and the ones on track to be HOF pitchers) that pitched the bulk of their career after 2000 include:

Roy Halladay six for six 225 lbs. Elite MPH, elite command, elite off speed pitches.

Clayton Kershaw six foot four 225 lbs. Elite MPH, Elite command, elite off speed.

Max Scherzer six foot three 208 lbs. Elite MPH, elite command, elite off speed.

Justin Verlander six foot five 235 lbs, elite MPH, elite command, elite speed.

Clemens and Unit could count too, but their career spanned so long, so I would view them a little earlier. Clemens and Unit are the two best pitchers probably ever. Six four and six eleven, with off the charts measureables.

Guys like Wainwright and Jon Lester are knocking on the door and they are six foot seven and six foot five respectively. They are each missing an elite element, Wainwright not elite MPH and Lester not elite commmand. But their size and elite other aspects are there.

So this notion that six feet tall is the optimal pitcher height is completely wrong.

Size alone does not matter, but If two pitchers both possess the same MPH, same movement, same command and same EVERYTHING else, and one is six foot tall and the other is six foot seven, then the six foot seven guy will be more effective. That is reality.

When Lefty Grove is competing for his ERA+ there were no such things as a pitcher like Justin Verlander that could throw 100 MPH AND do it with command, AND have the requisit off speed/breaing pitches AND be six foot five.

Walter Johnson is hailed as the best pitcher ever, but why would he be better than Verlander?? Even 'if'(a big if) Walter Johnson did throw 99 and tied Verlander in that one aspect, he falls short in those other key areas. There would be no good reason to put Walter Johnson on the mound over Verlander or Halladay, and neither of those two are even the best pitchers of their era.

Yet WJ has a better ERA and better ERA+, both of which were attained because the hitters were nowhere near as good, and the league pitchers where nowhere near as good that Verlander had to compete against for his ERA+

Heck, a side arm RH with primarily just a fastball, standing six one, WJ would see a steady diet of modern LH hitters who see 95 MPH EVERY SINGLE DAY. WJ would be no mystery whatsoever, and there would be zero reason to pitch him over Verlander, despite what the current flawed statistics say.