What 1912 stadium is this?

[horzverti]

What I do know:
Some guy name Cobb in his 1912 road uniform

What I'd like to know:
Where is he? Can you identify the stadium in which he floats?

I am selling this photo and want to include all possible info in my description. Any help is appreciated.

[BOB52]

Wayne Knit Hosiery ~ The Saturday Evening Post ~ 1912

[BOB52]

LINK: http://www.hakes.com/item.asp?Auction=190&ItemNo=49221

[horzverti]

Thanks Bob for identifying the Wayne Knit Hosiery advertisement on the outfield fence. I Googled this string and learned that Wayne Knit Hosiery had its headquarters in Ft. Wayne Indiana. The Ft. Wayne Railroaders played in Grand Duchess Stadium in 1912. Unfortunately, I was unsuccessful in finding any pictures of this ballpark. This may or may not be the correct stadium, but it is a start.
Thoughts?

[BOB52]

I'd start with every ball park in every city and state near Ft. Wayne, Indiana such as Chicago - Cleveland, etc. Or any team that was in the American League in 1912.

BOB

[Mark]

Someone should get started on a website that displays the configurations and signage of every ballpark in the majors from 1901 until today.

[baseballart]

There are a few ballpark experts around who don't seem to post on net54. I'll try an direct them here to see if they can provide any assistance

[horzverti]

Thanks Max!

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Mark

Someone should get started on a website that displays the configurations and signage of every ballpark in the majors from 1901 until today.

That would be incredible, both in terms of usefulness and in scope of project. Maybe someday, but my goodness, what a herculean task that would be!

[BOB52]

American League Teams in 1912. Of course Cobb played for the Detroit Tigers ...

Boston Red Sox
Washington Senators
Philadelphia Athletics
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Naps
Detroit Tigers
St. Louis Browns
New York Highlanders

[BOB52]

Classic Ball Parks (Old and New) ... Check it out!

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...ographs/page14

[BOB52]

1912 American League Continued ...

Boston Red Sox = Fenway Park
Washington Senators = Griffith Stadium
Philadelphia Athletics = Shibe Park
Chicago White Sox = Comeskey Park
Cleveland Naps = League Park
Detroit Tigers = Navin/Briggs/Tiger Stadium
St. Louis Browns = Sportman's Park
New York Highlanders = Hilltop Park

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

I've looked at about a zillion outfield fences, but haven't found the right one yet. At least not one from 1912 that advertises Wayne Knit Hoisery. Its possible they changed the signs from year to year, which, if they did, will make it tough to find the right one. However, a couple of things I learned during my search was to pay close attention to the fences that didn't have spectator seating and those with no city skyline in the background. I've already eliminated a couple of them, which I will mention later after I have fully confirmed them. The one in your photo appears to be maybe ten-foot high, so that should help narrow it down as well. But it's hard to say what all was done to those fences over the years. I suspect there is a good chance its one of the fences in an American League park ... but which one is the $64.00 question?

I'll keep looking. Its fun.

BOB52

[BOB52]

Based on my (non scientific) photo search, I have eliminated all of the 1912 American League ball parks except two, which are ...

1. The Washington Senators Griffith Stadium.
2. The Cleveland Naps League Park.

Research to continue.

BOB52

[BOB52]

Griffith Stadium ... (Possible if the wall in horzverti's photo is 30 feet tall).

The right field fence angled away from the infield sharply which, in addition to a 30-foot fence (to block the view from surrounding buildings) about 8 feet inside the lower, outer wall, meant that relatively few home runs were hit at the stadium.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by BOB52

Griffith Stadium ... (Possible if the wall in horzverti's photo is 30 feet tall).

The right field fence angled away from the infield sharply which, in addition to a 30-foot fence (to block the view from surrounding buildings) about 8 feet inside the lower, outer wall, meant that relatively few home runs were hit at the stadium.

Another view of right field wall at Griffith Stadium. Don't think it is Washington

[BOB52]

horzverti's photo ...

[BOB52]

League Park - Cleveland ? ? ?

[BOB52]

League Park Cleveland, Ohio - Home of the Naps

[BOB52]

horzverti ~

Are you 100% certain about the 1912 date? I eliminated the other 1912 American League parks primarily because all of the pictures I could find either showed grandstands or city skylines behind the outfield walls.

Thanks.

BOB52

[horzverti]

Originally Posted by BOB52

horzverti ~

Are you 100% certain about the 1912 date? I eliminated the other 1912 American League parks primarily because all of the pictures I could find either showed grandstands or city skylines behind the outfield walls.

Thanks.

BOB52

Yes. Cobb's uniform dates specifically to 1912 because of the collar style, light collar color which matches uniform, dark hat color and white buttons. It looks like Ty is wearing the 1912 Tigers road uniform, but he may not necessarily be on the road. He could have thrown on a road uniform while at home just for this shoot. Ty was know to get his uniform dirty now and again. Could it be that his home uniform was dirty?

Thanks for your research Bob. I really do appreciate it.

I am planning on starting the eBay auction for this photo tomorrow evening (Sat). Hopefully I can id the stadium by then. I will also be selling original pre-war photos of Babe Ruth, Lefty Grove, Gehrig, Dizzy, Feller and others. I am cleaning house...it is spring. I'll add a thread over on the buy/sell/trade area with more info.

Again, thanks Bob!

[frankbmd]

The right field wall in League Park may be higher than Washington.

Bleachers in left.

The Wayne family of Wayne Knit Hosiery was originally from Lansing, MI.

I guess we still don't know.


League Park

General Information
History
Analysis
Park Factors
Location
Dimensions

Fences - history
Fun Facts
Ballparks


AL Central

Cleveland Stadium

Comerica Park

New Comiskey Park
Old Comiskey Park
Jacobs Field
Kauffman Stadium

League Park
Metrodome

Tiger Stadium



Cleveland Sports
Browns
Cavs
High Schools
Capacity: 21,414
League Park

Aerial view of League Park

Picture from www.ballparks.com


General Information

Area of fair territory: 117,000 sq. ft. (1910 - 1919)

103,000 sq. ft. (1921 - 1929)



Area of foul territory: Average



Fences: LF - 5 ft

LCF - 10 ft

CF to RF - 45 ft

Elevation: 660 feet

Who Played Here: Cleveland Indians (AL)
First Opened: May 1, 1891
Reopened: April 21, 1910
First night game: Never
Last game: September 21, 1946
Demolished: 1951
Capacity: 9,000 (1891); 21,414 (1910)

Architect: Osborn Engineering (1910)
Owner: Cleveland Indians

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by horzverti

Yes. Cobb's uniform dates specifically to 1912 because of the collar style, light collar color which matches uniform, dark hat color and white buttons. It looks like Ty is wearing the 1912 Tigers road uniform, but he may not necessarily be on the road. He could have thrown on a road uniform while at home just for this shoot. Ty was know to get his uniform dirty now and again. Could it be that his home uniform was dirty?

Thanks for your research Bob. I really do appreciate it.

I am planning on starting the eBay auction for this photo tomorrow evening (Sat). Hopefully I can id the stadium by then. I will also be selling original pre-war photos of Babe Ruth, Lefty Grove, Gehrig, Dizzy, Feller and others. I am cleaning house...it is spring. I'll add a thread over on the buy/sell/trade area with more info.

Again, thanks Bob!

Navin Field in Detroit doesn't look right either. I checked.

[BOB52]

Navin Field

Ty Cobb ocassionally played center field.

[BOB52]

I'm not giving up just yet, but I'm definitely lost. (Lol)

"Legendary Detroit Tiger Ty Cobb steals home in the first inning of the Detroit-Cleveland game in April 1912 at Navin Field."

(View of left field fence and white uniform).

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by BOB52

I'm not giving up just yet, but I'm definitely lost. (Lol)

"Legendary Detroit Tiger Ty Cobb steals home in the first inning of the Detroit-Cleveland game in April 1912 at Navin Field."

(View of left field fence and white uniform).

Looks like people wearing socks in left field rather than a sign selling socks.

I'm giving up for now.

[powderfinger]

In August of 1912, Cobb was stabbed in the streets of Detroit while involved in a street fight with three men. He was on his way to the train station to catch a train to take him to a road game - in Syracuse, NY. It wasn't unusual for MLB teams to play exhibitions against minor league clubs during the season back in the day. A little research might indicate a minor league city was where the photo was taken. Also, MLB teams played many minor league teams on their way back north after spring training. A check of the Free Press might yield some information on where the Tigers played in 1912 besides major league cities.

[JollyElm]

After racking my frickin' brain for 2 days now, (with apologies to Dr. Richard Kimble) "And I just found a big piece!!!!!"

Look down this page at the 3 photographs of Nap Lajoie:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...l-Photographs&

In the bottom most picture, if you follow his right hand into the distance you see the pole (or smokestack) and the dark rooflike structure seen in the Cobb photograph. It doesn't say what stadium this is, but now we have a lot more info.

[BOB52]

Looks right to me ... Good Job, JollyElm ... Back To Square One ... Nap Lajoie appears to be wearing road grays, too.

[BigJJ]

I believe it is Bennett Park

[BigJJ]

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/pa...0/6a34430r.jpg
Picture vertical smokestacks? That structure. And height of wall looks right

[horzverti]

Although I am 100% sure of nothing...ever, I strongly believe Cobb is floating above the NY Highlanders' Hilltop Park in my picture. Now all I need to see is the same advertising sign IN Hilltop Park in 1912. Please stay tuned...

[JollyElm]

More info at that site:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...tographs/page4

Go down the page a little to the overhead shot of Hilltop Park in NY. The rightfield distant architecture is similar to the Nap Lajoie pic stuff. And our old friend the smokestack is there, too.

[BOB52]

According to Wikipedia, Bennett Park closed after the 1911 season ...

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennett_Park_(Detroit)

[horzverti]

..and the funny thing is that in 1910 at the same Hilltop Park this photo was taken by Charles...have you seen this one before?

To quote Mr. Baseball Bob Uecker, "nice, real nice."

[BOB52]

No fair! I call foul ball! How was I supposed to know it was the top of a building and a smoke stack in horzvert's photo? The background is blurry and I thought the smoke stack was a dang lamp post. Shows how much I know. (Lol)

BOOB52

[BigJJ]

If it is 1912, I think it is Navin.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by horzverti

..and the funny thing is that in 1910 at the same Hilltop Park this photo was taken by Charles...have you seen this one before?

To quote Mr. Baseball Bob Uecker, "nice, real nice."

I stood there!! My girlfriend was at Columbia Presbyterian and they have a home plate plaque/monument outside, so I ambled away 90 feet through the plants and bramble and stood there grinning. Although no one around me had any clue, it was really cool being right on that spot.

[BigJJ]

What am I missing here guys? You see the sign in the famous sliding picture? Is my eyesight that poor?
Edited to add that I think you mean that the height of the wall and background behind the wall are correct, but I'm still leaning toward Bennett/Navin.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

What am I missing here guys? You see the sign in the famous sliding picture? Is my eyesight that poor?

No, that pic is just a tangent.

[BOB52]

I'm glad this isn't over cuz I'm not convinced either that the park has been identified. So I've still got a shot at it and redeem myself. But the jolly guy definitely got his pics right. I'm impressed.

BOB52

[horzverti]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I stood there!! My girlfriend was at Columbia Presbyterian and they have a home plate plaque/monument outside, so I ambled away 90 feet through the plants and bramble and stood there grinning. Although no one around me had any clue, it was really cool being right on that spot.

AWESOME story Darren. I can completely understand why you didn't slide into that spot...I am sure you wanted to.

[BigJJ]

May be on target with Hilltop look at height of White Rock ad and background from 1911
Was the ad replaced for 1912?
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...top-Park/page3
Edited link

[BigJJ]

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...top-Park/page3

Edited link

[JollyElm]

Here's my logical conclusion. Of course, I'm assuming the old photographs are marked correctly as to where the photos were taken.

The Ty Cobb photo has the same background structures as the Lajoie photo, marked in red. There's also the ubiquitous smokestack.
The Lajoie photo has the same background elements (and probably a million more that I didn't assess) as the overhead picture of Hilltop Park, marked in blue.

I'm all CSI over here. Haha. To me, it's undoubtably Hilltop Park, NYC.

hilltop.jpg

[BigJJ]

You nailed it!!! Awesome

[BigJJ]

Photographer was on the ground, added a degree of difficulty
That was a good riddle

[BOB52]

I'm about 99.9% convinced it's Hilltop Park. And while I'm chewing over the remaining .1%, I thought I'd share this color photo of Hilltop.

[BOB52]

I'm now 100% convinced that its Hilltop Park. However, check out the pictures below, as well as the numerous others on Flickr. Every one of them is said to be from 1912. But I cannot find a single one among them that shows the Wayne Knit Hoisery ad. Which leads me to suspect one of two things ...

1. They changed the ad displays periodically during the 1912 season.

or

2. The photo was not actually taken in 1912 but is from some other year.

* If you click around enough you will see every part of the outfield walls - left - center - and right. Of course, were are only concerned with the right field wall. The link shows about 100 similar photos.

Link: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=hill...%201912#page=0

[BOB52]

I've gone through the 1912 Flickr photos three times now and don't see the Wayne ad. If I missed seeing it somehow, and someone else finds it, please let us know. And please know that I am not trying to be difficult here, but rather that I'm just trying to help and establish full accuracy.

Thanks.

Bob