Net54 T206 observation

[packs]

Definitely can't beat the HOFers in the T206. Does any other set feature so many? Maybe the Goudey sets?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by E93

The problems is not too many T206 threads; it is the laziness of non-T206 collectors.

JimB.

P.S. Leon, Gary N. is one of the coolest guys in this hobby, as you know. One of the functions of this board is to serve as a watchdog to protect people like him. If you want that aspect to remain, you can't single out honest collectors for calling out unethical actions in the hobby when they are getting screwed. Gary should be applauded for being willing to go public against what was the most powerful auction house in the hobby, even if he is not a regular contributor these days (He has been in the past on the old board.). I suggest you reconsider your take on this issue.

JimB- this wasn't about Gary not being a great guy (in the best sense of the word). He is. It's about taking and not giving. As I said, I also helped with that situation with some phone calls I made on his behalf. Absolutely he should be applauded (hear the applause?) for outing not being paid. I would just like to see him, and others, contribute a bit more. That is all....best regards

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by E93

The problems is not too many T206 threads; it is the laziness of non-T206 collectors.

I would be surprised if a vintage baseball card forum was not dominated by talk of "The Monster."

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Are you bored by its awesomeness?

ha ha... honestly, I do like the set. I just get a little tired of it.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by E93

Gary should be applauded for being willing to go public against what was the most powerful auction house in the hobby, even if he is not a regular contributor these days (He has been in the past on the old board.). I suggest you reconsider your take on this issue.

Imagine if Gary didn't have money owed to him by Mastro and actually came out against them because of the obvious fraud they were committing against everyone and not just him. I guess in that case he'd just get attacked and told that his criticism was tiresome and that no one wanted to hear it anymore.

Moral of the story: Net 54 members will support the outing of an auction house engaged in obvious fraud as long as said Net 54 members are not major consignors and making money off the auction house.

[E93]

Originally Posted by Leon

JimB- this wasn't about Gary not being a great guy (in the best sense of the word). He is. It's about taking and not giving. As I said, I also helped with that situation with some phone calls I made on his behalf. Absolutely he should be applauded (hear the applause?) for outing not being paid. I would just like to see him, and others, contribute a bit more. That is all....best regards

Leon,
I know you and Gary are friends and that you helped him out in this situation. This is all a discussion among friends. I consider you one of my better hobby friends as well. I also would love it if he posted more. Gary is being quite humble about his knowledge. But I think he was a bad example to be called out in this case because I don't see his example of calling out Mastro an example of "taking". He put himself out there in a way that also benefitted other readers who were being screwed by Mastro and maybe did not realize there were others. It seems as though Mastro (or Doug or whoever - I don't know the details) needed the PR debacle to start to do the right thing.

I think this was a case where frustration that knowledgeable (mostly) lurkers like Gary don't post more, confused what Gary had actually done, served as a hobby watchdog, and got him labeled (wrongly, imho) as a "taker". Just my .02. Take it for what it is worth.

JimB

edited to sign my name

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Imagine if Gary didn't have money owed to him by Mastro and actually came out against them because of the obvious fraud they were committing against everyone and not just him. I guess in that case he'd just get attacked and told that his criticism was tiresome and that no one wanted to hear it anymore.

Moral of the story: Net 54 members will support the outing of an auction house engaged in obvious fraud as long as said Net 54 members are not major consignors and making money off the auction house.

I'm just thrilled to learn that criticizing auction houses when it's appropriate is now an acceptable practice on the board -- even an applaudable one.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by E93

Leon,
I know you and Gary are friends and that you helped him out in this situation. This is all a discussion among friends. I consider you one of my better hobby friends as well. I also would love it if he posted more. Gary is being quite humble about his knowledge. But I think he was a bad example to be called out in this case because I don't see his example of calling out Mastro an example of "taking". He put himself out there in a way that also benefitted other readers who were being screwed by Mastro and maybe did not realize there were others. It seems as though Mastro (or Doug or whoever - I don't know the details) needed the PR debacle to start to do the right thing.

I think this was a case where frustration that knowledgeable (mostly) lurkers like Gary don't post more, confused what Gary had actually done, served as a hobby watchdog, and got him labeled (wrongly, imho) as a "taker". Just my .02. Take it for what it is worth.

JimB

edited to sign my name

Jim- I consider you one of my better hobby friends, so we are in reciprocation of each other's friendship; Gary is right behind you . That being said you might have to be in my shoes to feel the way I do. I am done on the subject also. Have a happy holidays and can't wait to get together at the National (I assume you will be there?).

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by packs

T206 collector, the T206 is filled with a bunch of unknowns too who never made it to the majors but do have a card in the set that you probably have. What is the difference between that and Obak collectors?

Southern Leaguers are the Obaks of the T206 set. They are a necessary evil.

Many of the Minor Leaguers, you may find, either played in the Majors before or after their T206 appearances (e.g., Cravath, Blackburne, etc.)

[rfurnish]

I sincerely hope that this thread doesn't discourage any one from starting future t206 related threads....I realize that not everyone is here for t206, but I would guess that it's what the majority of us have an interest in. I say bring em' on!

[packs]

I guess for me the kicker to the T206 set is the pricing. I totally understand how pricing works in relation to supply and demand, but sometimes it gets way too crazy in regard to the T206. Shag only played 9 major league games but his card in comparable condition is worth more than some HOFers. I totally understand and accept it, but am just not a fan.

[teetwoohsix]

From the very first one I got (Bill Hallman SGC50)to the last ones I got (will post after I take the pictures of them maybe next month),I have never caught the fever for any other types like I did for T206's.
I hope no one stops posting about them either.
A little other flavor never hurts though,I love to read posts about all pre war cards,so bring it on!!
The December pick ups are awesome!!!!!!!!
So is the "Capture of The White Whale"(beautiful collection,congrats on that,by the way).
To each his (or her) own.
Regards,Clayton

[Leon]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess for me the kicker to the T206 set is the pricing. I totally understand how pricing works in relation to supply and demand, but sometimes it gets way too crazy in regard to the T206. Shag only played 9 major league games but his card in comparable condition is worth more than some HOFers. I totally understand and accept it, but am just not a fan.

I think the pose of Shag is what does it. He looks like Count Dracula. I only have him in E222 with that pose so will save that for another thread. Neat poses most often bring more money. It seems he almost has a cult following .

[Dave1943]

I regret that I am viewed as a non-participant, but I ask that I be allowed to remain a member. I only became recently interested in baseball cards, and I live in an area where vintage cards are 1980ish. I have no desire to be considered a 'taker', but I do not feel that I have gained enough knowledge or acquired enough cards to have anything worthwhile to contribute to your excellent forum.

Respectfully,

Dave

[matthew]

To the poster above - --

I don't have the info in front of me, but there are quite a few T206 SLers who had ML experience. Some may have just a had a cup of coffee, but there are some pretty good careers sprinkled through them as well. I view them as no different (or better in some cases) than the mediocre major leaguers.

[rhettyeakley]

Some things to know about Frank Shaughnessy (of T206 fame) other than the Dracula look...

Shaughnessy had a very long career as a baseball player, manager, and then became president of the International League for nearly 30 years, that is what (in my opinion) makes him a more desirable card to have than any other SL card. Not to mention he was captain of the 1904 Notre Dame football team. He is also a member of the Canadian Football HOF (was also head coach of Clemson a few years after John Heisman), and is in the Canadian baseball HOF. In all seriousness Frank Shaughnessy is one of the most important "forgotten" sports figures of the early 20th century.

Here is a trivia question about Shag: (that I don't have all the answers to)
How many other T206ers are pictured on a card put out by Topps before 1970 (other than 1951 Connie Mack All-Stars)?

What Topps set (defined as anything produced by Topps) is Shag featured in?

[ethicsprof]

i,for one, much prefer Shag's 'hippie' hair to the scary flat top Coach's look he had in his older days.
Granted, i've still got a bit of the old 60s hippie in me.
But a little less than Barry Sloate.

I must say this board continues to be the best in the known universe,IMHO,
even with warts and all.

best,
barry

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Dave1943

I regret that I am viewed as a non-participant, but I ask that I be allowed to remain a member. I only became recently interested in baseball cards, and I live in an area where vintage cards are 1980ish. I have no desire to be considered a 'taker', but I do not feel that I have gained enough knowledge or acquired enough cards to have anything worthwhile to contribute to your excellent forum.

Respectfully,

Dave

Dave,

I don't think Leon was thinking about canceling anyone's membership. Just the opposite, he's trying to encourage everyone to participate more.

I don't know where you live, but much of the country has the same approach to what's "vintage." There are probably a dozen or more board members here, within a few miles radius around Dallas (myself, Leon, Jeff P, Rich K, just to name a few) yet you couldn't find a card shop, dealer, or show no matter how long you looked. That's what's great about this board, the internet, and even Ebay. You can find almost anything you want.

[yoyot1]

Wow, didn't know Shag coached at my alma mater, that's pretty cool. Go Tigers!

[E93]

Originally Posted by Leon

Jim- I consider you one of my better hobby friends, so we are in reciprocation of each other's friendship; Gary is right behind you . That being said you might have to be in my shoes to feel the way I do. I am done on the subject also. Have a happy holidays and can't wait to get together at the National (I assume you will be there?).

I will be there. Looking forward to seeing you too Leon. Have a nice holiday.
JimB

[E93]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Imagine if Gary didn't have money owed to him by Mastro and actually came out against them because of the obvious fraud they were committing against everyone and not just him. I guess in that case he'd just get attacked and told that his criticism was tiresome and that no one wanted to hear it anymore.

Moral of the story: Net 54 members will support the outing of an auction house engaged in obvious fraud as long as said Net 54 members are not major consignors and making money off the auction house.

Not being a major consignor to any auction house, I had to read this several times before realizing you were actually referring to me. I have not consigned to any auction house in this hobby more than once, so I think it would be difficult to characterize me as a "major consignor" to any of them. I probably have only consigned items four or five times in 25 years in the hobby. So this has nothing to do with me making money on anything. Am I now on your conspiracy radar? You couldn't hold back, even when I was supporting the same types of criticisms you have levied. The difference is, in Gary's case, irrefutable proof was presented. In many of the cases you presented, allegations were made based on circumstantial evidence - much of which was shown not to support your suggested conclusions when bidders and underbidders came on to present facts rather than innuendo. I have no problem with outing fraud. I have a problem with potentially damaging someone based on a hunch. If you want to talk about the appearance of impropriety, how about a lawyer continually bashing an auction house on a public forum only to find out months later that he is actually defending a client in a civil suit against that auction house.
JimB

[calvindog]

Jim, you're a fool. I noticed Mastro's obvious fraud years before I ever represented Dave Forman in a case against Mastro. In fact, it was because I didn't lay down for Mastro like nearly every one else did, despite the beating I was taking on the board by Dougie and his friends, that Dave probably hired me. And everything I said on behalf of Dave I said publicly on this board for years prior.

And I was right about Mastro despite all the great guys on the board who blasted me for daring to harm their golden goose. And the evidence I presented regarding Mastro was all circumstantial -- which is actually a very powerful type of evidence. Only later did more evidence come out of the woodwork supporting the very obvious proof I presented. As for Goodwin, the evidence suggesting fraud which has occurred in his auctions dwarfs anything shown in Mastro years ago. Getting 30x what other auction houses get for the same, identical card over and over again is strong enough evidence for me that something rotten is going on over there.

[Orioles1954]

No Net54 Dinner is Baltimore? Dang, my first National, 10 minutes from my house and no dinner......grrrr...

[vintagewhitesox]

I never was a big fan of the T206 set. I do like a few of the cards, like the Cobb Bat Off, and Young Portrait. But still, I can appreciate the nuances and difficulty of completing the Monster.

[E93]

Glad to hear the appearance of impropriety does not always equate with wrongdoing.
JimB

[calvindog]

Except mine was not an appearance of impropriety since my purported conflict arose well after I had already stated my feelings about Mastro -- and I didn't change my position for money or for a client. Sometimes you just want to think aweful things about others, that's all.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by T206.org

Beer.

...and popcorn!

[ChiefBenderForever]

Nothing compares to T206 and never will. Quanity, backs, variations, hof's, sl,ect ect. The other sets are all awesome but very limited quantities. I love the caramels and see a lot of talk how they have dried up due to lower prices so very tough to pick any up, and when they do come up very expensive. The T206 is the gateway set, and you don't have to have a ton of money to start collecting them, that can't be said for most prewar.

[E93]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Sometimes you just want to think aweful things about others, that's all.

I will assume that was ironic humor. Have a good night.
JimB

[barrysloate]

Rhett- to answer one of your trivia questions, and this is purely a guess, I'll say Shag appears in the 1955 Topps All-American set.

Barry A.- I've seen pictures of you and you have way more hair than I do. But yes, I am still a hippie at heart, or as they might say in Yiddish, an alte-hippie.

It's a couple of hours later, and now my thought is Shag may be in the 1960 Topps set, on one of those coaches cards. It's either 1955 or 1960. Again, I didn't look it up.

[calvindog]

Yes, it was ironic that I can't spell awful, you are correct.

[Kotton King]

I don't have an issue with all the T206 threads either. When I got into vintage cards 3 years ago that was my gateway set. I no longer collect it, but I always find myself coming back to it to pick up a card here and there.

So I too say bring them on.

Shag is my favorite card out of the set. I have an example with all three of the possible backs (Piedmont 350, Old Mill SL, and Hindu). A fun little subset.

[yawie99]

Originally Posted by Kotton King

[B]ut I always find myself coming back to it to pick up a card here and there.

Me too. I suspect I'll always need a periodic dose of T206 methadone.

[rhettyeakley]

Well Barry since you are the only one that tried to answer I will just tell ya. He is featured on a Topps baseball card in the 1964 Topps Rookie All-Star Banquet set. The card depicts him (obviously later in life) along with Jackie Robinson, Charles Spink, Al Silverman, Joel Shorin, J. McDermott, and J. McKenney.
-Rhett

[barrysloate]

Never would have gotten that Rhett. It was a tough one.

[ethicsprof]

with your selling of so many of your favorite T206 St. Louis cards, I've wondered how your addiction was doing. i'm pleased the Monster dose
of methadone is helping!
always glad to see you on board, ole buddy.

best,
barry

[rc4157]

Jumping in here a little late but I've been quite busy losing girls high school basketball games but that's another story.

I didn't catch the banner debate, I tend to stay away from those, but I will say that the highlight of my 1st National this year in Cleveland was meeting fellow Net54 members. It would be a shame not to have another get-together in Baltimore even if it would cost us to assist in putting it together.

As far as too many T-206 threads.......they don't bother me a bit, I don't collect all T-206, I got all of the Reds and a few other selected cards and don't really have the interest to go after the whole set but I still enjoy seeing the pick-ups and thoughts of those that do collect T-206 extensively.

Have a great holiday everyone!

RC

[caramelcard]

I like T206 AND obak discussions. And this thread is the best ever to grace this board.

[jrhatchjr]

I have thoroughly enjoyed Brian's posts on various issues (D310, M116/E91, etc.) and learning new perspectives. Unfortunately I don't have much to add to them to aid in testing the theories

[brianp-beme]

Sometimes you post a thread and it ends up spiraling away from your original intentions. I just wanted to hopefully instill the fear of the card gods into getting some additional interesting posts and responses on this great site.
T-206's will always be the star amongst vintage colectors, and this set should be...it has it all, with a ton of nuances and mysteries to satisfy all the detectives amongst us. Keep on posting T206 info, lurkers contribute when you are able, and peace be to all

So there.

Brian