WOW! PSA! T206 DOYLE! WOW!!!!!

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Posted By: Rawn Hill

Then how about a NET54 grading company?

Rawn

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Posted By: boxingcardman

"OY! PSA! T206 DOYLE! OY!"

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Anonymous

I AGREE WITH TED, BAD, BAD FOR THE HOBBY. BUT I HOPE YOU ALL SEE WHAT MONEY CAN DO TO A GOOD THING. I SAID THAT BECAUSE I REMEMBER WELL GOING TO OUR LOCAL 5 AND 10 CENT STORE TO BUY MY CARDS, NOW A KID HAS TO BE WELL OFF TO BUY A PACK!! SHAME, SHAME, SHAME.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

PSA 6: NAT'L abbreviation same size lettering and the apostrophe starts higher than the tops of the letters.

SGC 50: Large 'N' - remaining letters smaller with the top of the apostrophe even with the tops of the letters.


>>>>>>


I've been at the FUN convention in Orlando. Very well attended. About 800 dealer tables. Heritage Auctions have their auctions running in series daily.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

Good work, Jerry.

Game. Set. Match.

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Posted By: Justin Brooks

is it me, or does the WHOLE typing look off.... Even the DOYLE font looks slightly different....differnt form, spread...

Could it have been a whole different machine executing the type?

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Posted By: Anthony S.

That's just it, Justin. A whole different machine/type setter/what have you, about 95 years later.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

So let us count the PSA mistakes on this one...

1- it is a Polar Bear back, not Polor Bear.

2- The card was not issued with a Polar Bear back, it is fake.

3- Joe Doyle is on the fake card, not Larry Doyle.


What else??

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

You hit the "trifecta" with your succinct summary.

And, you will appreciate this........

I just got in from the cold, and I'm sitting here sipping some good ole Kentucky Bourbon, while reading this thread.

I hate to admit it....as sad as this particular situation is....but, as I read this thread, I have several regarding
this entire matter.

Just another day and another Graded fiasco.

This Nov. I posted of the graded Joe Doyle fakes....including this Polar Bear one. Here are the links to those posts......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1226425634/last-1226504252/T206+Joe+Doyle+N.+Y.+Natl

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1226433875/last-1226504252/T206+Joe+Doyle+N.+Y.+Natl



TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Kentucky Bourbon...no Metaxa?

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Posted By: T206Collector

<<the WHOLE typing look off>>

Yes. I think that was mentioned above someplace, but it is pretty clear that the counterfeiter decided to erase the entire bottom and retype it as opposed to adding the lettering "Nat'l" -- obviously it is easier to pick up two different fonts with them side-by-side. Rewriting the whole thing over means you'd have to either eye-ball it, or lay it next to another authentic card.



_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: Brian

"sipping some good ole Kentucky Bourbon"


Which bourbon?

A few of my current favorites -- Elmer T. Lee, Four Roses, and Wild Turkey Rare Bread

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

but it is pretty clear that the counterfeiter decided to erase the entire bottom and retype it as opposed to adding the lettering "Nat'l" -- obviously it is easier to pick up two different fonts with them side-by-side. Rewriting the whole thing over means you'd have to either eye-ball it, or lay it next to another authentic card.







I didn't want to say anything, but you're dead on. Exactamundo!!!!



From a card doctor's perspective, I consider it to be somewhat of a sloppy job as well. It could have been done much better, which would have been worse for the hobby. That is a tough alteration to accomplish.







Kevin Saucier

------------------------------



www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I am "sipping some good ole Kentucky Bourbon"......

Why of course, what would a grandfather of 3 grandchildren drink,but....OLD GRAND-DAD.

Regards,

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Brown wine.... from the corn grape.

When I partake of bourbon, my preference leans toward Maker's Mark. But I just sip it in tiny bits.

Kick that cold, Ted. Orange juice helps, too!!

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Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

If the entire player/team lettering on the bottom of the card is erased, can that erasure be detected? I ask because it occurs to me that if it cannot, then what's to prevent a skilled crook from erasing a "Magee, Phila. Nat'l" and replacing it with a "Magie, Phila. Nat'l"?

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Posted By: Pat

He introduced me to ouzo.........things have never been the same

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Posted By: MVSNYC

did somebody say Bourbon?

my favs:

1. Pappy Van Winkle (20 year)
2. Woodford Reserve
3. Basil Hayden

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

How have you been ?

And, how is your Dad ?

Email me....and, we'll get caught up on every thing.

TED Z

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

then what's to prevent a skilled crook from erasing a "Magee, Phila. Nat'l" and replacing it with a "Magie, Phila. Nat'l"?



Nothing but the skill.


Some time (maybe a year or two) ago, I mentioned that it's the alterations you haven't seen that would shock you. Unfortunately, this is one.



Kevin Saucier




------------------------------

www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Why erase "Magie, Phila. Nat'l", when all you need to erase is the 1st "e" in Magee ?

And, of course this has been done. However, I have yet to see one of these Graded.

Of the Magee's >> Magie's....that I have seen, most have been modified by scammer's smart enough to have selected a Magee
with a Piedmont 150 back.

And then, there are some uninformed jokers who have modified Magee cards with other backs. These you can instantly dismiss.
But then, some of the fake Magie cards with the Piedmont 150 backs have been modified quite professionally, and must be ex-
amined under magnification to detect that they are fakes.

TED Z

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Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

"Why erase "Magie, Phila. Nat'l", when all you need to erase is the 1st "e" in Magee ? "

To answer your question, I think T206Collector says it very well -- "....but it is pretty clear that the counterfeiter decided to erase the entire bottom and retype it as opposed to adding the lettering "Nat'l" -- obviously it is easier to pick up two different fonts with them side-by-side. Rewriting the whole thing over means you'd have to either eye-ball it, or lay it next to another authentic card."

As a practical matter, IF you had a forger that really was expert at what he does (as well as knows the correct back to use), it would seem that to the UNAIDED eye, it will not be possible to distinguish a fake Magie or Doyle Nat'l from a real one. Presumably examination of the dot matrix pattern under high magnification would reveal the fake, but do grading companies do that type of analysis? The other way -- chemical analysis of the inks comprising the lettering -- I am certain they do not do. So short of looking at it the old fashioned way -- the card's pedigree -- I'd be very leery of buying a Magie or a Doyle Nat'l.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- Paper conservators could examine a card microscopically, since they are typically very thorough and spend a lot of time with material submitted to them.

But I don't think grading companies have that luxury of time; in a sense they are grading factories with deadlines to make. They really should spend a lot of time examining cards that are either very valuable, or ones that have a history of being altered, but I'm not sure that they do.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Barry raises an important issue -- the failure of a grading company to spend enough time evaluating certain cards.

The root of the problem would seem to be the price a grading charges to slab a card. These companies are after all profit-maximizing enterprises that need to be fairly compensated for the services they perform. If I owned a grading company I would regard a price structure that charges more for higher valued and/or conditioned cards (that therefore have an increased risk of alteration) to be a win-win for all involved. To the card owner, he/she would have the satisfaction that (1) the card was evaluated carefully with no time constraints using the proper equipment and (2) the slabbed result would have maximum market value because potential purchasers would have fewer qualms whether the grading company missed something. To the grading company, it would (1) be fairly compensated for the additional time that was required for the examination and cost to acquire the appropriate equipment and (2) substantially lessen the risk of incurring a stain to its reputation caused by a missed alteration and needing to pay out damages to an agggrieved party.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well the grading companies do have a sliding scale, ranging from under $10 to over $200 per card. But I'm not sure if the extra charge is for the quick turnaround (the highest tier is for two-hour service), or because the graders spend much more time with the card.

My question is if you submit a five figure card, which will cost whatever the top tier is, will the graders spend a significant amount of time examining it with state of the art technology? You would think so, but I don't know how it works.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Barry,



I am aware that the grading companies charge more to turnaround a card more quickly. That was not the price structure I was referring to. I'm referring to a price structure that assumes the turnaround time will be identical but charges more for cards that have a higher likelihood of alteration (i.e., more expensive cards and/or higher-conditioned cards).

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes, if you pay say $200 to get a card graded, you should get both a quick turnaround time as well as a more detailed examination. I would hope that you would get at least a full two-hour examination for your money. Again, I don't know how much time is spent with each card at any tier.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

This card doesn't need a two-hour examination. All it needs is a ten-second examination.

-Al

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Posted By: Mark Macrae

If the entire player/team lettering on the bottom of the card is erased, can that erasure be detected? I ask because it occurs to me that if it cannot, then what's to prevent a skilled crook from erasing a "Magee, Phila. Nat'l" and replacing it with a "Magie, Phila. Nat'l"?


Corey,
Although the question was directed at someone more familiar with a wide range of alterations, I can POSITIVELY state that more than one Magie variation has been altered in that fashion, and it wasn't just recently. The problem goes back to 1990. Not to sound like a longtime lurker (who was removed from this board a few years ago), but he was correct in the story that he shared. One of the two 'dealers' involved in this scam is out of the hobby, but was essentially outed. The other dealer from Michigan and the craftsman, also from Michigan haven't surfaced in many years, but are likely still out there. Hobby good-guy Charlie Conlon was very tense during the weekend of the 1990 National in Dallas when this problem was at it's first pinnacle. Two days later, he and three other people familiar with the 'real' Doyle were all satisfied that Conlon's Doyle was real. This was years before 'professional' grading took root, and involved conversations with people who owned, or had owned to that time tens of thousands of T-206 card (In two cases more than 100,000 cards). On a card with significant value, it is up to the individual purchaser to make certain he knows what he is buying before he spends that kind of money. Due diligence. There will never be 100% certainty with ANY card, professionally graded or not....

Mark

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

All cards in all conditions are susceptible to alterations. Altered cards are far from limited to high grade or more expensive cards, as one poster suggests. Assigning a value on a card is up to the submitter. I am not sure PSA takes the time to verify if cards being submitted are valued properly. Further you cannot establish a grading tier based on condition.

Since everything is entered into a computer there should be software that alerts a grader to cards submitted which are 1)worth more than the stated grading tier and 2)more prone to alteration. It would be nice to think that the more expensive the card the more it is scrutinized but that is not going to happen in all cases.

As to this Doyle card a simple cert check will demonstrate this card was placed in the lowest tier grading service where the most inexperienced graders work. Not making an excuse as PSA, upon the recent review of the card from EX to EXMT, could have taken it off of the market but PSA does not make mistakes, just ask them. Once they have graded a card it is 100% legit otherwise they could not offer the ½ point review where they guarantee a card goes up or it remains unchanged.

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Posted By: jdrum

have a hard time convincing me that the grading companies spend any more time on a card based upon the tier or value. I have always thought the "tier based on value" was the grading companies way of participating in the secondary value of the card.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Greg- what you said is very interesting, and I never considered it. You're saying a forger could deliberately undervalue an altered card on the submission form, thus directing it to an inexperienced grader. Boy, it's tough to think of every trick.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

If you pay $200 to get a card graded, then you have too much money and insufficient appreciation for money.

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Posted By: JimB

"If you pay $200 to get a card graded, then you have too much money and insufficient appreciation for money."

Frank,
That statement is simply naive. You don't have to like grading, but it is difficult to deny that a $200 grading fee can more that pay for itself when a card sells for tens of thousands of dollars more graded than it would have raw.
JimB

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

And I always thought the rationale behind grading was to have a competent company opine as to the card's condition and authenticity. Now based on what's been said it would seem that at least in regard to PSA (anybody know how SGC works), the reliability behind the slab depends on the tier the card was graded in. And on the lowest tier sit graders who it seems are not qualified to make judgments about certain kinds of alterations. I suppose its just a matter of time before we start to see auction houses exploiting this situation by touting how the grade PSA assigned one of its offerings should be taken more seriously because it was evaluated in the highest grading tier.