t206 Blank Back vs Printers Scrap

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Posted By: Jamie

What are the differences between blank backs and printers scraps... I was told there are 2 types of blank backs.. hand cut and factory cut.. are the hand cut blank backs called printers scraps? or are they totally seperate things.... and if they are different how can you tell the difference?
also how does this affect the value of the card? worth more or less one way or the other?
thanks

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Fair to assume the handcut ones are printer's scraps. Scraps usually have front printing problems, ala bad registration, ghosts, color issues. Perhaps when the entire print run was finished, blank backs were considered the boo boo and not cut up into final cards. In the middle of the print run you could stick the sheet back in the printer, but when printing was finished they scrapped it as unfinished. There was no point in factory cutting up and sticking into packs tobacco adverts with no tobacco advertising. Most scraps have backs.

I would assume the factory cut blank backs are worth more. But with an oversized handcut scrap you can be confident the card has never met a paper cutter.

Excluding proofs, the vast majority of vintage handcut T206s with significant printing problems are scraps. While most problems are on the front, a blank back counts as a printing mistake as all cards are supposed to have tobacco ads on the back.

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Posted By: Jay

If a dealer is selling it, or an auction house is auctioning it, it is blank back. If you are selling it, it is printer's scrap.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Jay, if a dealer's buying it it's a printer's scrap. If he's selling it it's a blank back.

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Posted By: Jamie

Told they were printers scraps and not true blank backs... what ever the hell that means.... they dont have any flaws like printing errors or ghost images on them..... you be the judge..

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Posted By: Jamie

So a printers scrap with a blank back is still a blank back right?
I guess I need some more clarification... are the three cards above blank backs or not?
thanks

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Posted By: MVSNYC

a card without an advertisement printed on its reverse, is considered a "blank back", period. they come in different forms (proofs, handcut, factory cut, etc), but they are ALL considered blank backs, which command a premium, with printer's proofs commanding a huge premium. printer's proofs were created (front printing only) before mass producing the cards. they allowed the printers to allign the various colors, and make a final mock-up or sample...

"normal" blank backs (whether they were factory cut or hand cut), never received the tobacco ad printing on the reverse, and were most likely pulled and not put into packs for distrobution.

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Posted By: J Hull

blank-backed scraps...

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Posted By: jamie

Thank Matt

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Posted By: robert a

I think the term "printer's scrap" has become a generic name for blank backed cards.

There are two distinct types of blank backed T206 cards that don't have the proof marks.

Hand cut blank backs and
Factory cut blank backs

Yours appear to me to be factory cut.

I have seen far less Southern Leaguers with blank backs than regular players.

I haven't seen much difference in price for factory cut vs. hand cut.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

robert sorry to disagree, but i do...

first of all, every card that Jamie posted above is HAND CUT, every edge is wavy, not a straight one in the bunch, obviously not factory cut.

and regarding this comment: "I think the term "printer's scrap" has become a generic name for blank backed cards."

printer's scrap refers to any card that has defectsof some sort (drastically miscut, color missing, etc), which was pulled off the "line" and discarded or saved, but NOT put into packs...they are not all necessarily blank backs

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Assuming it hasn't been skinned, a blank backed card is a card that has a blank back. It's a literal and self-explanatory term.

A scrap was a printer's mistake, the sheet tossed away. The singles were later handcut off the sheet by a worker, worker's kid or whomever. As they were mistakes, the usually have printing mistakes-- ghosts, bad alignment, other. Most scraps have tobacco ads on back. Scraps never made it to the inside of tobacco boxes, so were unissued. As the printing mistakes can be wild and even psychedelic, some get a premium as oddities. Some scaps are oversized.

Presumably, there were factory cut blank backs that no one noticed and got into the packs. It was possible to find blank backed Topps cards in gum packs also. When you're making and packaging that many cards, mistakes slip through.

Many card collectors differentiate between issued trading cards and production items-- proofs, scraps, original art, etc. This is why a collector may differentiate between a factory cut blank back and a scrap blank back, and prefer the one that was sold inside a pack of cigarettes. Most baseball card collectors focus, which is not to say focus exclusively, on the final product given to the public. Though as T206 proofs, unusual scraps and uncut sheets sometimes show us, production items can fetch good money.

I believe all T206 blank backs are tough and examples in any form will have good demand. Blank backed 1989 Topps, on the other hand, garners little demand.

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Posted By: robert a

Michael.

You're right about jamie's cards. They look like they're hand cut along the sides. The top/bottom don't look hand cut to me. One's diamond cut.

We'll have to agree to disagree about what printer's scrap means. Printer's scrap is not every card with a defect. All cards with a color defect were not pulled off the line and all all cards that were "drastically miscut" were definitely not pulled off the line.

What I meant is that traditionally in this hobby you'll hear folks refer to blank backed cards as printer's scrap.

Rob

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Posted By: jamie

if I were to send these into sgc.. would the label read blank back? or printers scrap.. any thoughts?

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Posted By: barrysloate

You might want to first ask them if they accept blank backs for grading. I thought I heard they didn't, but I could be wrong.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

You can call Michael Goldberg at SGC and ask him; they are user friendly.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

SGC recently graded 2 blank backs for me (says blank back on the label)...they historically did not grade them, but if they are the proper thickness, they will now slab them "A" authentic.

robert- i do see what you are saying, i guess i didn't mean that every color error or miscut was pulled...BUT, i think we agree, that if something was pulled, then it is known as a "printer's scrap"...which could be a variety of things (miscut, blank back, color error, etc).

it's like, a square is considered a rectangle...but a rectangle is not always a square...

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Posted By: boxingcardman

The distinction is over whether we can see an item was distributed.

A blank back stems from the pressman not putting a sheet through the press or possibly from a sheet not getting back ink for some reason. The card wasn't caught and was cut and packed into product. It is a subspecies of printing error, which is a card that had something go wrong in the printing process, whether it is missing ink, wrong ink, misalignment, running one side upside down, miscutting, etc. Something went wrong in the process, wasn't caught, and the item went out with the error.

A proof is an intentionally-produced partial printing used to check how the item looks. [Question: has anyone ever seen any proofs of card backs? I know I've seen Topps Vault card backs but I can't recall ever seeing anything like it with T cards]

A printer's scrap is a catch-all for anything that survived in other than uncut sheet form that clearly wasn't packed into product, which is the conclusion deduced from rough handcut borders.

A blank back could be either scrap or issued; unless the borders show clearly one way or the other any conclusion is speculative.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: MVSNYC

thanks Adam, you said it more eloquently than i was able to...

this should be crystal clear now.

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Posted By: robert a

Yeah well said Adam.


By the way, I've heard of a couple blank fronts with piedmont backs, but I think there was some question to whether or not they were legitimate.

Rob

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A seller of a blank back can simply give nice pics, describe the edges (rough cut, oversized, whatever) and let the bidders decide what to call it. There's no law that says you have to label it as scrap or not. While some scraps are obviously scraps (oversized, obvious printing errors, obviously handcut) Jaimie's are not so obvious one way or the other. One has a bit of a rough cut, while the other looks machine cut (though cut crooked). I can only see two cards, but both might be factory cuts with handling and wear. You see factory cut T206s with worse wear than those. Scraps often to usually have much wilder cuts, obviously cut by hand.

Verdict: Blank backs? Yes. Scrap or factory cut? Not necessary to answer. With big pics and physical description, bidders can form their own opinions.

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Posted By: jamie

Thanks to david and everyone who helped with this thread.. I guess the guy at gthe card show was trying to dup me into selling them.. cause right after he told me they werent blank backs and were printers scraps he offered to buy them from me... back stabbing industry.. at least we have the board.

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Posted By: Eric G.

I don't have any blank back cards or printers scraps but below are some proof sheets from my collection. All of these proofs have blank backs. Not baseball but I hope you like them anyways.

From the T51 college series set:




From the 1915 Ogdens set of boxers:








Eric G.

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Posted By: robert a

Very cool Eric...especially that T51 sheet. Wow.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Proofs are usually blank backed as well. They are often on different stock than the regular cards as well. I also agree that Eric's proofs are cool.

Unlike scraps and issued-blank backs, proofs were test prints to see how the graphics look. The graphics and text often differ from the final card. They are much rarer and more valuable than scraps.

[toledo_mudhen]

The FB Forum "T206 Cards - PSA and SGC Graded" currently shows an example of a Pat Moran T206 with a Blank Back that is in a BVG 1.5 Slab.

The Description on the slab says in it's entirety -

1909-11 T206
Pat Moran
Listed with Chicago

There is no mention of a Blank Back - So not sure if different graders describe differently.