O/T: Santana Trade

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

How about that bag of rocks Minnesota got for the 2-time Cy Young winner?

As a Mets fan, I'm thrilled; having a hard time understanding why the Twins would take the Mets' lousy players over the Major League-ready players the Yankees offered.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Hard to know, but maybe Minnesota was banking that Hank Steibrenner would be a protege of his father and decide he HAD to have Santana. That then would force the Red Sox to raise their offer and....... Fortunately (I am a Yankees fan) it did not pan out that way. Clearer (e.g., Cashman) Yankee heads prevailed, they came to their senses and withdrew their offer, Boston knowing the Yankees were not serious pursurers anymore lowered their offer and bingo, all that was left was the Mets. That coupled with the Twins desire, all things being close to equal, to trade him to the National League resulted in the Mets bonanza.

Morale of the story -- look at the donut, not the hole. Had the Twins not been greedy and tried to induce the Yankees/Red Sox to raise their offers, IMO they would ended up with a much better deal.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Corey, very true. And to think the Twins could have had Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. Unreal. The Mets literally gave up nothing for perhaps the best pitcher in baseball.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

While I would have loved to have seen the Red Sox get Santana this IMO was the best possible scenario. The Yanks didn't get him, The Sox still have Ellsbury, and Santana is out of the AL.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Seems like the Twins had better offers than they got from the Mets. The Mets gave up four players, none of whom may ever develop. Very strange trade indeed.

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Posted By: george "bulldog" adams

jeff calvindog the answer is simple the twins owner would rather have a fatter wallet than put a winning team on the field welcome to the world of corporate greed bro. bulldog

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Posted By: barrysloate

True. Pohlad is down to his last $3 billion, so fiscal restraint is certainly in line.

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Posted By: SC

The Twins effectively wrote off this year, but what is the value of not facing Johan for the next seven years?

I've got to think this played into their figuring, with the 1 in 16 chance of facing the Mets in the WS, vs. the 1 in 7 change of meeting the NYY or Boston Red Sox in the AL playoffs.

They at least theoretically weakened (or did not increase) the strength of their likely opponents. That's got to be worth something.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

this is hardly a losing team;

2b Harris
of Young
c Mauer
1b Morneau
3b Lamb
of Cuddyer
of Monroe
dh Kubel
ss Everett.....not too bad .WIth Liariano expected to be back and is already throwing 95-96 regularly, it is not as bad as you think. The deal with the Yanks and getting Hughes would have been best for payroll and not losing a starter pitcher.SOmebody got paid behind the scenes.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Jeff,
I for one am very happy that the Yankees didnt get Santana. To trade away all that great young talent! What a mistake that would have been. I think that they should take a chance and let the farm system talent that they have been building in the pitching department continue to come up and see what they have there. As has been proven many times before its not how much a player costs,many high priced players have proven to be busts after large contracts,its talent that makes the player.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I think Carlos Gomez is going to be better than Melky Cabrera within 2 years.I saw him play in the minors a few times,spring training,and most of his games in the majors,he is amazingly quick,good defensively and has a great arm,hes still young though and his overall performance in the majors shouldnt be a basis to grade him. He was called up too early because Moises Alou is a 80 game a year player and Lastings Millidge isnt the player the media hyped him up to be


Kevin Mulvey is going to be a good-to-decent major league pitcher for awhile and the other 2 pitchers are very iffy but they had alot of success in the past(Humber) and are too young and inexperienced to be sure about(Guerra)

You gotta think that when they went back to the Yankees and Red Sox and said the Mets made an offer neither team cared to bid as much because it kept Santana away from their top competition. I think they were both bidding to keep him away from the other team and the worst thing to do was involve a 3rd team. It also keeps Santana out of their own league where they would see him every year instead of maybe every 3 years

That Gomez-Young-Cuddyer outfield is going to be very good years from now and they had some good young pitchers before the trade Liriano,Baker and Slowey are all good pitchers under their control for the next 5 years.Boof Bonser was ordered to get into shape for the upcoming year and if he pitches like he was thought to be able to,they should be back to respectability in time for the new stadium....and they still have Morneau and Mauer for years to come,2 great young players

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I assure you that Gomez will not be better than Cabrera in two years. You need to see him play; trust me on this one. As for Humber, he's a total dog.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

See who play? Ive watched Gomez play about 50 games total and Cabrera play a few hundred,hes basically as good as Cabrera defensively,has at least as good an arm as him,should easily be able to hit 280 with 20 hr's which is where is see Cabrera in the future and his speed compared to Cabrera isnt even close to compare.Gomez is faster than Jose Reyes and he proved it a couple times during spring training in one on one races and timed runs. Hes basically going to be Cabrera with a ton of speed

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

John, Cabrera is 23 years old and had 78 RBI at the back of the Yankees order. Gomez is a year younger and has 12 career RBI. Paul Wilson had potential too. And Lastings Milledge -- who is also fast. Gomez has a shot to be a good outfielder but scouts have said he doesn't have a head for the game.

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Posted By: Bob

The Twins traded WS MVP Frank Viola to the Mets and got two young players who "had upside but no one knew how good they would be, it was a gamble." The two players were Rick Aguelaira and Keven Tapani who led the Twins to the WS championship 2 years later.
The Twins traded AS catcher Perzynski (sp) to Giants for Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano and Boof Bonser. Nathan has been the best closer in the AL the last 3 years (at least West of Boston), Liriano was THE MAN in 2006 on the Twins staff, not Santana. He had Tommy John surgery and is throwing better than ever. Bonser is a 3-4 pitcher in the rotation who is finally healthy and fit.
The Twins traded Chuck Knoblach, then arguably the best 2b in the AL for a "bag of rocks," Eric Milton who was superb for the Twins for several years, Cristian Guzman, a multiple AL All Star infielder, etc.
There is a reason the Twins have one of the best team of scouts and farm system people in baseball, they recognize talent. (Don't forget they picked up Santana as a non-protected player for peanuts because they saw something special in him.
Gomez WILL be better than Cabrera. He is younger, faster, has a stronger arm and more range defensively. He just needs to establish himself as a hitter. There are no flies on Humber or Mulvey either, they are starters in the rotation soon, albeit as 4-5 guys. Guerra is the real possible jewel in the deal. He is 2 years away but could be awesome if he continues to progress.
I think Santana peaked in 2006. He was very good, but not great last year. Hitters started laying off his circle change and waited on his fastball and hit it out of the park. I don't believe he won a single game last year against the Indians or Tigers and was not big in big games.
What were the Twins supposed to do, keep Santana and get nothing for him like they did with Hunter?
They made the best deal they could. The Red Sox and Yankees never really wanted Santana at the price, they just wanted to keep the other away. He's out of the AL now, that's good for Twins fans. Maurer-Morneau-Cuddyer, the heart of the team is signed long term, they have a super young pitching staff and more to come in the farm system. Getting Young was HUGE, he will be the power hitting slugging OFer they have needed for years.
Don't shed any tears for the Twins, they'll be competitive next year and with a few breaks and players coming through (and Punto on the bench) they will be a wild card contender.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Bob,

I was with all of your logic until this: He just needs to establish himself as a hitter.

That's a pretty big "just." It's not like that's a given. There have been a ton of players with a lot more promise and potential who never established themselves as hitters on the major league level.

I'm not saying that your conclusion won't prove true, just that you threw a pretty big "if" in there.

Rob

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Posted By: john/z28jd

We will see Jeff. You cant base it just on what he did this year,hes still 16 months younger than Cabrera and he hurt his hamstring almost as soon as he got called up and then had his hand broken a month later,its hard to judge a guy based on a season drastically cut short by injuries.

I saw him play 6 games in 2005 while in A ball and in a league where the average age is just over 22 he was doing good at age 19,you can tell then he had potential. As a Pirates fan who saw Andrew McCutchen at the same age in the same level the next season,I was more impressed with Gomez, and McCutchen is the 12th ranked minor leaguer overall this year. I dont think he will be as good as Cabrera by this years end,and probably by the end of 2009 they will be equal value but after that I think Gomez will be the better player and thats based on seeing them play and where they are in their development.


*edited to clarify i was talking about Cabrera at the very end,not McCutchen

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Detroit- CLeveland-and Boston will be there without a little luck, but I still wish you well....pitching not ready enough yet.

10 games above 500 will be a good year for them.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Santana had a poor September but he's going to be a big contributor for the Mets. It's possible none of the four prospects will pan out, and even if one does, decent hitting outfielders are a dime a dozen.

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Posted By: Bob

Agreed Rob, but he is still a young kid. The Twins coaches will have him start by chopping down on the ball off the Dome turf ala Guzman Castillo and others who really padded their averages while learning how to hit and using their speed. If he doesn't work out the Twins have another Kirby Puckett in their farm system who will be up in 2009

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Posted By: Bob

Barry- I want you in 2 years to look back and see who had the better year in 2009, Santana or Liriano, ok?
Also, Gomez will give the Twins something Carbrera can't, defense ala Tori Hunter. Saving runs by running down flies and line drives and throwing out baserunners is just as important as the difference between hitting .270 and .300.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Liriano is a great pitcher, I can tell you that right now. Gomez is to be determined, but like I said, finding outfielders who are decent fielders and hit .280 with 15-20 homers are always out there. And many of them have a few good years and then disappear.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Liriano is coming off major arm surgery. Good luck with him being the same pitcher as before.

As for Gomez, I agree he can be special -- but he'll never hit for real power (although it is true he is faster than Jose Reyes). I'd still rather have Ellsbury or Phil Hughes any day of the week than Gomez.

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Posted By: sagard

The Twins basically traded thirty four or thirty five Johan starts and two compensatory picks for these four guys. If their system was working and developing players the wouldn't have needed to let Santana go. Let me play out his contract, compete, and wish him well when he leaves.

People seem to think that the Twins will automatically rebound. It's no sure thing. They were bad between '93 and '99.

I have to think this deal would have been there at the deadline. If the Twins would have sucked, then they could have tried trading him. Johan could then decide to waive his no-trade claus and go put the exclamation point on his record deal at free agency.

These guys swindled Hennepin County into paying for a stadium and I don't have the confidence they are going to be a quality product when the stadium opens.

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Posted By: Richard S. Simon

As a Mets fan who has had a Saturday ticket plan for the last 10 years, I am smiling from ear to ear. Cannot wait for this baseball season to start.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

I have been hoping all winter that the Red Sox didn't get Santana. As someone once said, "Sometimes the best trade is the one that never happens."

The Red Sox have a long history of giving up on players too soon. The influx of young players, together with the seasoned veteran players, was crucial to the Red Sox' success this past season. Hopefully, Jacobi Ellsbury will remain in a Red Sox uniform for many years to come.

Patrick

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Posted By: Fred C

Santana's just like any other pitcher - one pitch away from Tommy John surgery. Huge contracts can pay huge dividends or burn the bottom line of a team for a few years to come. I guess if you're the Yanks, Mets, Dodgers or Red Sox a large loss wont disable a teams ability to progress.

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Posted By: Brian

As a Yankee fan, I am glad for 2 things, Santana is out of the American League, and Boston didn't him. Although I think there is a plus side to getting a pitcher like Johan, I would have to say that betting the farm, literally, and negotiating a long term deal with a 30+ pitcher is a tough nut to swallow. Granted, he is a great pitcher, but he eats a lot of innings, and even the best pitchers at some point come up against health issues. I think the mets are paying for 6 years, but in reality will get 4.5 out of him.

On a side note, Melky Cabrera is going to have a break out year this year. Because of the decaying state of the current outfielders, I think he is going to be the one to watch this year. The pitching will be interesting, I will admit, I don't think that the young trio will be the end-game solution to the Yanks pitching woes, but I do think the movement toward youth, is a move in the right direction.

One more side note, Morgan Ensberg is a brilliant pickup. He has a healthy shoulder and is heads above the rest of the "competition" at first base.

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Posted By: quan

this might be a case of not striking while the iron's hot. minn should've taken hughes/cabrera when they had a chance. now they've waited too long so they had to dump him or he will veto any in-season trade and walk at the end of the year. the mets didn't even have to give up their #1 prospect, gomez's "ceiling" may be high but he still a long shot compared to other prospects out there.

of course by signing santana to that huge contract the mets are also taking a gamble...long-term contracts for pitchers is a risky business, being a dodgers fan i know this all too well(kevin brown, darren dreifort). in the short term the mets will benefit and they should be assured of the crapshoot that is the playoffs for the next couple years where anything could happen.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

And Quan, this is where the inequities surrounding deep-pocketed teams makes baseball unfair: the Mets, Yanks, Sox, Angels and a few other teams can have a 150 million dollar bust and simply write it off and move on. Other teams would be crushed!

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Posted By: Chris Counts

Perhaps it's because they're under contracts at very reasonable terms, but I thought the A's got better packages of prospects for Haren and Swisher than the Twins got for Santana. I just don't get a good feeling about Gomez, who seems to me to be the key to the trade. The pitchers the Mets got back seem pretty ho-hum. If I was a Twins' fan, I'd be really bummed at my penny-pinching owner ...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey, $3 billion doesn't go as far as it used to -- and the Twins' owner is like 90 years old; perhaps he's afraid he'll out live his money.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

"Don't shed any tears for the Twins, they'll be competitive next year and with a few breaks and players coming through (and Punto on the bench) they will be a wild card contender."

You tell 'em T'Bob, although I've completely soured on Nick Punto--all the effort, hustle and determination in the world doesn't alter the fact that the guy sucks.

The comparison to the Viola trade is interesting. Frankie was 29, coming off a Cy Young and a little more than a year removed from a World Series MVP. He was the primo leftie of his time. He would win 20 games in his first season for the Mets, however, he only lasted as a starter for 4 years after leaving Minnesota, and only stayed with the Mets for less than three seasons.

Viola was 57-47 as a starter after leaving the Twins. One of the players the Twins got in return was nobody Kevin Tapani. His record during the same four-year stretch was 56-44, the same as or better than Viola by himself. He won a World Series game, and David West, another nobody acquired for Viola, won an ALCS game. Viola pitched in no more playoff games after leaving Minnesota. And then there was Rick Aguilera, mis-used by the Mets, who became a three-time All Star closer in Minnesota and who won a World Series game and saved two more.

So Twins fans will be just fine, thank you.

Pay your $1M+ per win for Johann, assuming he wins 137 games (nearly 23 EVERY year). If he pans out like Frankie V, you're paying over $2 million per win. Such a deal.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well the fact is few free agents are ever worth the money they are paid. Didn't the Yankees give Clemens $18 million to win 8 games? A brilliant investment, don't you think? Every one of these guys is paid more than he's worth, so it's just a matter of what kind of production you can get. Of course no pitcher is worth $1 million per win. You can sign a good minor league pitcher to a $350,000 contract and get 5-6 wins.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Luckily the Mets can afford the contract. So can the Twins' owner - he just chooses not to spend his money.

Hey Todd, remember this: "Santana isn't going anywhere--period. The Twins have not been far off the pennant-winning trail, and with their young pitching, solid bullpen, good defense and perennial position as one of the besst fundamentally sound teams in all of MLB, they should be serious contenders for the next few years, particularly if Liriano comes back. They only need a couple of bats, and Hunter knows that. If he's going to leave, look for him to pull a Rod Carew and pass up the higher dollar Yankee offer for one coming from a Southern team."

Woops! I guess you picked the Pats and gave points too!

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Posted By: shane leonard

in my estimation. I think he is going to be a very good OF and should have more steals than his ex-teammate Reyes. Gomez was known to be the fastest guy in the NL last season. He did not get that much playing time due to an injury, but the guy has serious wheels. I agree with you John, Gomez is going to be a hot one.

Shane

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Gomez had a lot of buzz when he came up last year for the Mets and he truly had flashes of brilliance. He didn't hit well but very few do their first call up. The problem with the Mets' prospects is that they always seem to get a lot more pumping from the press than they should. At one point, Lastings Milledge was viewed as being a 5 tool player with more upside than Gomez ever had. Also see: Bill Pulsipher, Paul Wilson, etc. etc.

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Posted By: Bob

Anyone remember how Mickey Mantle played his first time up in the bigs before being sent down? It takes a while.
The other thing on Santana which isn't being recognized is that the Twins offered Santana the same money the Mets did for 4 years, they just didn't want to go beyound 4 years. It's not like they offered him a couple of cases of Pepsi and a bag of free balls.
Todd- when I said Punto on the bench, I meant DON'T PLAY THE GUY UNLESS ABSOLUETLY NECESSARY! I agree with you 100% on him.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

And I was proven wrong about the first part of my statement, although the rest remains true. Jeff, since birth I've never pretended to be God-like--pardon me if I doubt you saying the same. I had the Giants plus the points, BTW.

Barry, your comments about free agents are true, they are nearly always overpaid. So why the continual harping by folks on Pohlad being cheap? Honestly, do you believe offering Torii Hunter $15M per year and Santana $20M per year to be cheap? Anyone care to comment how they've locked up Mauer, Morneau and Cuddyer, the heart of their order?

Carl Pohlad is 92 years old. He may have great grand-children as old as some posters here. Do people really believe he spends his days in the corner counting money? Although he stays involved, he, unlike the buffoonish Steinbrenner, has long since relinquished most control of the Twins and the family finances. This old miser talk and its usual accompaniment "He got his money foreclosing family farms during the Depression" (he was 14 when the Depression started) are tiresome. It would be nice if folks would at least do some homework and use common sense rather than building on the media's lazy and almost mythical portrayal of Carl Pohlad as some sort of Simon Legree.

And so it goes. The haves, with their nearly limitless revenue streams from media and other outlets, will continue to have, and the have nots will continue to have not. So in the words of Bacall from that very To Have and Have Not, let's all give a whistle-- "You know how to whistle, don't you, ...? You just put your lips together and... blow."

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Todd, I guess a 92 year old guy with a few billion in the bank is one of the have-nots, huh?

And sorry you were wrong. Again. At least Kenny Cohen didn't have to come in and correct your work this time!

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

you seem to insist on the final word, so I'll let you have it, although I have no idea what you are talking about, and no one needs to correct my work.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Thanks, Todd. But now I truly have the final word -- and Kenny won't be necessary this time.