Autographs.....JSA video

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Posted By: leon

Sorry for the O/T but this was sent to me and I feel it's important to let our members know of hobby stuff.....I have met James Spence exactly once for about 10 seconds.....I am completely neutral on any memorabilia/autograph collecting but most collectors are good folk so it's all good.

Personally I have never had a warm fuzzy about game used stuff and autographs but that's just me and I know a lot of our members enjoy those hobbies....regards

http://tinyurl.com/26pmyd

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Posted By: Rob

Fortunately I'm not an autograph seeker, except for the few that I've obtained in person. This clip certainly doesn't pose well for JSA and the autograph-collecting community IMO.

Rob

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Posted By: jeffdrum

Wow! Is all I can say! Thanks Leon!

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Posted By: Jay

For modern autographs the only way you can be sure it is real is to see the person sign the item yourself. For deceased people it's buyer beware. In my opinion this video shows that autograph authentication, for all but the most sloppy jobs, is worthless.

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Posted By: leon

Once again...I really have no comment on this situation. I was sent the clip and didn't feel like it was my right not to post it...that's all. I have never had anything authenticated by JSA or anyone else, concerning autographs or memorabilia. It's not my gig.....I am sure there are millions of good items in those hobbies....

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Posted By: chris bland

Never understood how someone can look at a signature and determine if its "real" or not. If I sign my name 10 times, I can find something different about each and every signature - how can authenticating something like that be any more than an educated guess?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...and really indefensible. I have staked a lot of my signed pre-war collection on JSA's reputation. The problem here is that Sal Bando was signing at that show and then people would take those photos to the JSA table to have authenticated. Since the value of a Sal Bando autographed photo is not high, and the guy was there signing, the incentive to forge is basically nil -- and so JSA rubber stamped them okay.

But, frankly, that is a huge problem even under these circumstances.

I have always accepted that authenticated signatures are only as good as the reputation of the authenticator. If it turns out that James Spence is a hack, and the industry avoids him as a result, then I'll have to find another authenticator for my collection.

I wonder what Beckett thinks of this clip, since they just partnered up with him.

Edited to note that SGC and JSA went their separate ways prior to these stories coming out.

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Posted By: Bob

I ran in to a collector/seller at the post office yesterday who asked me if I had heard about the Sal Bando autograph incident. I mentioned I had not, and he told me James Spence was in deep do-do. Thanks for posting the video. That is why I do not collect autographs except when I eyeball the guy signing or buy it from someone of integrity who did. Needless to say I have a small autographed ball and print collection. My Dimaggio signed print and ball were both personally inscribed to my daughter back in the early 1980's and we kept the newspaper which featured a photo of my daughter being handed the signed ball from Joe D.
My Matty signed ball was purchased almost 20 years ago from Robert Edwards but I believe it is 100% authentic, authentication or no authentication...

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Posted By: James Feagin

The reason I have been selling all of my autographs lately.

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Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

Autographs are not my main interest either. I have maybe 4 or 5 dozen auto's of Cardinals and some other players from card shows. NONE are authenticated, but I know they are real as I saw them sign it.

At the St. Louis National in 1995, you got a free auto with admission. I got Bill Walton's auto just for kicks. After he signed I left the room, turned the corner, and 2 "authenticators" sitting at a table OUTSIDE THE SIGNING ROOM asked me if I wanted them to certify my autograph for $7. I said "how do you know its real, you didn't see him sign it?" They just had a blank look on their face.

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Posted By: David Davis

Wow! So far no damage control on the JSA web site. Not sure if the ostrich approach is the best way to handle this. If it were my company, my butt would be parked next to the autograph table, and the item would be passed directly to me if all I was going to do was give it a cursory glance at best before saying it was authentic.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I am an autograph collector and as stated above, you just have to put faith in the reputation of the authenticator but even more importantly, you're own judgment.

I am not a fan of Spence - I've had him tell me an autograph that I had signed in person was an "obvious" fake. I felt that if he was so sure an autograph I knew was authentic was an obvious fake, how much does he truly know. That being said, obviously I am the only one who knew it was real and Spence doesn't know me from the next person. I guess it would be better having an authenticator refusing to authenticate a real autograph than having an authenticator authenticate a fake autograph.

Unfortunately, the market has come to a point where the market demands 3rd party authentication, no matter how imprecise the authentication process is. At the end of the day, the person who is authenticating your autograph is only giving an opinion.

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Posted By: Matt

There have been several exposes like this one - some mroe are noted here:
http://www.autographalert.com/news.html

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Posted By: Erick Lewin

Very troubling, but not surprising to me at all. I have always thought about this when going to the card show at Hofstra. They used to have GAI do on site authenticating, but the last show they had JSA. It would be so simple for anyone to bring a forgery of one of the guest signers there. They don't even look at the signatures, they just assume all are real since the people are signing right there, about 30-40 feet from them. People could keep their real signatures for themselves and have the forgeries stickered authentic for about an additional $5.

I have always thought that whole process is so stupid anyway though. Why would someone have there item stickered and given a COA when they just witnessed it signed in person. If the only reason to do so is $, that's more reason for people submitting there fakes. Especially at shows with atheletes who have high dollar signatures.

Theoretically, Say Cal Ripken is signing. Someone could buy 1 real ticket to get a real Ripken signature. Then walk over to the JSA (or other autenticator's booth) and have as many fake signatures given COA's as they want. They could just pretend they paid for, say 5 or 6 signatures from Ripken and I bet the authenticator wouldn't give them a second glance if the signatures where anywhere close to the real thing......Scary

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Posted By: Scott S

WOW is all I can say as well. Larry - the authenticator who OK'd the Bando autograph in the clip - is from Boston and is relatively new to JSA (probably been there about a year). I've known him since our days of stalking Fenway Park during the '80s and '90s, collecting autographs outside the park. He's a great guy and really knows his stuff, and I totally trust him on autographs, and would usually feel the same about others from JSA.

This case is a tough one, because when authenticating at a show like this, they've probably got their guard down, since they're in the same room as Bando and not expecting anyone to submit a fake, so I'm sure they'll approve anything at that point. I'm not saying that's OK, but it would be a different story if someone brought up a vintage sig to be authenticated.

I would've like to have seen if the story showed them submitting a forged DiMaggio or Mantle autograph at the same time, since I bet those would've been critiqued much more so than the Bando.

My money says this will serve as a wake-up call to JSA and others regarding analysis of in-show signatures, but I will continue to trust their judgement on vintage sigs....

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

It seems to me that Spence was to careless being right next to the signing table so every Sal Bando auto they just assumed was just signed and real. So they where taking there free money for 2 seconds of work. I hope when they get an autograph of a person not in the same room they do more due diligence in making sure it is the real deal

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Posted By: Matt

Scott - I believe in the link I posted above you have JSA authentication of a seemingly forged DiMaggio and Gehrig, as well as PSA/DNA with similar issues.

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Posted By: DR

It looks to me like the reporter had the Sal Bando autograph ticket (receipt) on top of the forged photo (from the authentic signed photo). Someone could find fault with any grading / authentication company and paint a general picture about the opportunistic activities that regularly transpire. Do they happen more frequently in the autograph realm...absolutely!

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Posted By: Matt E.

Maybe the autographs I submitted to JSA that came back "not authentic" are in fact "authentic".

Thank you for posting Leon.

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Posted By: Scott S

I just checked out your link - interesting stuff on the Gehrig and DiMaggio stuff which JSA has authenticated. I will have to think twice about my thoughts on JSA after seeing your link and this other story...

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hey Leon, since I can see this thread getting very long I think you should change the URL in your first post to this tinyurl so we won't have to scroll left to right to read this thread. Just a suggestion...Thanks

http://tinyurl.com/26pmyd>


didn't want to bump to top but thanks Dan...it's done (leon)

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Posted By: boxingbaseballgolf33

It really is hard to say what kind of an impact this will have on the hobby, but certainly not good news. I only hope this will improve the authentication process for collectors and dealers, because we put our trust in these companies. We all understand that autographs have this kind of reputation, but educating yourself and working with the authenticators is the best approach. If a dealer cannot offer you a full refund on any autographs (PSA, JSA and others included), work with a dealer that can.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Matt

Jimmy - how would a refund help? If JSA says it's good, unless you've forged it yourself, how would you know it was a fake to ask for a refund?

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Posted By: keyway

Autograph authentication is a joke. It is simply an opinion, period. I have seen some of these guys doing at show grading. HAHA. glance at some items and they are ok, study some items and they are no good. To me they are worse than forgers. At least the forger knows what he is doing, these guys turn away some good autos, and that is worse. Its a total shame when a good auto is sent away as fake.

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Posted By: Jimmy

Matt,

There has to be trust between the buyer and seller and refunding any item you sell provides options. I have had a few customers come to me at shows and say I am really thinking twice about this autograph you sold me and would rather invest my money in cards or something else. When you are a seller of goods you need to have a policy. What if someone bought and item from me that was from GAI or JSA and then wanted to switch it to PSA and it came back no good for some reason (this does happen). Autographs are very tough in this hobby and anyone can make a mistake. I would want my customer to be happy right. I can just take the autograph back and deal with it myself, without my customer having to deal with problem. Some autographs come back from JSA or PSA because they do not feel as comfortable about the autograph and sometimes have to pass. I had a nice example of a Ted Williams Autograph that came back that was fine and did not see a problem with that. I live in the Boston area and have good resources for his items. If you place guidelines down for your customers to follow they will want to come back. I even accept refunds for cards and other items I sell, just as long as the items are returned to me in the same condition and the customer has good reason.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Matt

Jimmy - let me make sure I've got the scenario correct - buyer buys JSA authenticated autograph from dealer. Buyer is uncomfortable with the authentication (reasonable in light of the expose) and decides to cross it over to PSA/DNA. PSA/DNA rejects the autograph as being a forgery. The dealer should now, weeks later, take the item back and process a refund?

I will absolutely commend you as a seller if you would honor a refund in that circumstance, but I think it's unreasonable to ask dealers to do that - the pricing on the market is so volatile, you could suffer a significant loss if you allow indefinite returns.

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Posted By: Jimmy

Matt,

I work with a few other dealers and we have been doing it this way for years so we did not want to change our policies even for graded cards and authenticated autographs. If you build up good relationships with your customers it really works out well. Our policy is the item must be returned within 14 days or at least make contact, because many of my customers see me at shows. It really helps to work around the problem and make the customer feel better. Understand it does not happen often, but you have to be prepared and have something setup for any possible scenario.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Dave Williams

I wonder if it had been Willie Mays, or Bill Russell (Celtics, not Dodgers , or some other high profile star with significant resale value signing if they would check them better?

I doubt there is much of a market for Sal Bando, fine player that he was.

But that is exactly why I've never bought an autograph. I've gotten them myself.

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Posted By: James Gallo

Guys I have seen spence at many shows and I have never seen either of the guys that talked in the video. As stated one is new.

Many of the auto's I have I got in the 1980s and 1990s myself so I know they are real, however I was buying a lot of stuff at shows and honestly it wouldn't suprise me if they are fake. I had JSA look at 2 Nolan Ryan autos which really looked good to me but I couldn't remember if i had gotten them myself.

I have had them look at about 50 pieces in the last couple of years and I have only had a small handful refused. They have refused 1 Mantle 3 times beacuse they just aren't sure.

Honestly I think this video is a bit unfair as who the hell cares about Sal Bando.... This will always go back to any 3rd party service spending the same time to authentic a $5 card, coin, autograph or whatever vs a $10,000 piece. It just doesn't happen the same way for pieces of such a drastic value difference.

I have sat there any watched the spence crew look over pieces and I have had them study a few pieces that were boarder line and yet still refused.

Does this show poorly on the company yes but I don't think it is the end of the world.

The only impact this will have is that the items JSA has refused I will have someone else look at and see what they say.

At the end of the day it all comes down to somone's opion wheather it is on a card, autograph or anything else.

If PSA refused a card that is then graded by SGC who is at fault. Same issue here. As someone stated any 3rd part service is only providing an opinion and from what I have heard JSA was respected well enough.

Lastly, for all the JSA is burning people I know I have heard of GAI and PSA signing off on some fake stuff to so it's not a perfect system and you just have to work in it.

That is why all my auto's I got in person or I will track back to the original person that got it signed.

Lastly, as someone else mentioned I would love to see them try to do this with a Ruth and see what happens, I bet in a few seconds they would refuse it.


James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: DJ

I think it was entirely fair since it basically showed the process at hand. Showed how sloppy they can be and what little time is dedicated to the process at hand.

While I was in Chicago for the National about seven years ago, I witnessed a gentlemen trying to get through the Online Authentics line stating that the item had just been signed by Muhammad Ali (who was at the show signing) and since Online Authentics applies an invisible dab on the photo after it is signed that could only be seen by a special light, this one person attempt to get it authenticated on site was foiled and a scene was created. The signature was comppletely bogus and he was trying to get away with having his useless photo authenticated.

Authenticating firms like JSA often split the duties and Jimmy may be in Boston on a Sunday and on that same Sunday, Larry would be Chicago or something. The question is...you can't be an expert on everything and what if the authenticators expertise is baseball and he is approached to authenticate a John F. Kennedy or Janis Joplin. Does he give out a pithy "I trust ya!" like in this instance?

I love the way the whole thing went down (especially with Bando) and you have to feel for the grilling of the show promoter who had really nothing to do with this. Oh well.

If you haven't seen, I highly recommend you check out the HBO Real Sports special that aired like two years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZF5rvPPIY&mode=related&search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3I8VE2aUU&mode=related&search

DJ

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

JSA is a joke. My favorite lines: "unfortunately this did not put us in a very good light." And: "isolated incident."

You have to be out of your mind to spend big bucks on an autograph these days. I haven't bought one unless it is on a check in years.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- even autographs on checks are not necessarily good. Secretaries and wives often signed them. Checks are a pretty safe medium but you still have to know your stuff.

P.S.- our tenant moves out next week, so we'll be back on the east end starting Dec 1.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, we do need to set a NYC Dinner Thread Dinner for sometime in December!

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Posted By: barrysloate

We had talked about Peter Luger's, but it fizzled. Maybe Manhattan would be easier. And where is Michael- he barely posts anymore?

How about American Pie out in Bridgehampton. Do you go there?

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Posted By: Glen Turner

Autographs.....
I have been collecting autographs for 47 years and feel as if I am a fairly good judge of an authentic autograph in most cases.
I decided that I would have some of my more expensive autographs authenticated by PSA/DNA because I know I am going to die owning them and this would make it easier for my family to dispose of the collection plus that MAGIC holder makes them worh more.
After a few experiences with PSA I decided that they did not know much more about authentication than I do.
Examples, I sent in 3 signed Roberto Clemente cards that I stood in the Continental Hotel in Houston, Texas and watched Clemente sign them in 1965. Guess how many came back authentic? One with the other other two being questionable.
Examples, I sent in several 1960 & 1961 Fleer signed cards and wasn't too pleased with the results. I obtained most of these autographs by writing to the players in the 1960s. A couple of years before Paul Waner passed away I received back from him a 1960 & a 1961 Fleer signed in the same ink pen. They autenticated one of the two cards.
I really don't think in the long run that PSA or JSA or whomever really is too worried about the percentage of being right or wrong and the reason is because they already have your money no matter what.
Just my opinion.

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Posted By: Jay

Barry--Please let me know if you guys do a December dinner in Manhattan

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Posted By: Brett

Hey tbob, can you post that Matty signed ball ? It would be neat to own a signed ball by him and especially if it was signed during his playing days !

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- I will keep you informed. Have a good Thanksgiving.

Glen- that is a truly depressing story. When you get an autograph in person, and the authenticator calls it questionable, it just makes a mockery of the whole process.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, World Pie -- and yes, I picked up a pie from there about 39 days in a row this summer and walked my dog past it everyday. It's the only game in town.

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Posted By: barrysloate

World Pie, of course. Great brick oven pizza. And Candy Kitchen across the street.

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Posted By: DJ

Authentication or no authentication, it's the necessary evil these days. If JSA or PSA/DNA fails your item, does it still have value when 70-75% (more on some) of all signatures are forgeries?

It's a necessary evil that you have to get the "okay" from a someone you have no idea who they are and you have no idea what makes them a viable candidate to pass judgement on your piece.

But when you think about it, in a world where about a dozen services exist, isn't PSA/DNA and JSA still the very best? I mean, who you gonna go to for an accurate opinion....those guys who authenticate for Coach's?

DJ

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Posted By: Solomon

The circumstances surrounding a submission, for cards or autographs, to an authentication company often dictate how the item is graded/authenticated.

I know many submitters would send questionably trimmed/altered cards in with a group of fresh/unaltered cards, hoping the graders will look at them as being one "good" group.

All the major auction houses, when they have JSA or PSA/DNA etc. certify some of these huge bulk lots of 1000 autographs - do you really think they are looking at each one? If there is a lot of 100 Cal Ripken Jr. 16x20s, that all look like they came from one source, with the background that the auction house has (theoretically) vetted the source to begin with - do you think they are examing each and every single? What is the lot is 2000 various baseball stars, including lots of obscure plays from the 70s and 80s? I can assure you, if you stick 10 bogus Bob Feller autographs in a group of 1000 various legit HOF autos...they're going to get by.

If someone is submitting a $5 autograph that was susposedly just signed minutes ago...yeah you're not going to get the same level of review.

Ultimately, any authentication company is only worth what they're willing to back their opinion. Every single company has screwed up, and will make more mistakes.

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Posted By: Fred C

My two "sense" on J Spence...

1) At a show someone was set up near Spence and somebody got James Spence attention and asked if something was real/authentic. The guy held up an item and yells to Spence (at least 50 feet away). Spence gives a thumbs up. Nice work! It could have been just about anything.

2) I had an autograph which (at the time I didn't know) is known to be a secretarial signature. I guess all of the main authenticators know this but I had no clue. Rather than just tell me it was a secretarial signature he took over a hundred of my dollars and had his opinion prepared within the hour. He knew it was not authentic from the second he saw it. He could have just been a good guy and said it's common knowledge among authenticators that this particular signature (on this certain item) was a secretarial signature. Instead, he lost all of my future business. What a putz...

Edited to add: I just watched the video... Someone should ask Spence if he has authenticated an unauthentic signature. If he says NO, then you know he's probably full of it.

Oh yeah, this is Thanksgiving and we should be thankful for what we have. I just want to say that I'm thankful for all the people (in the past, present and future) that allow me to say to J Spence: "what a putz".