Ty Cobb brand

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

Does anybody know what year the Ty Cobb brand was produced or how to go about finding records like that?
Thanks,
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

candy or tobacco?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

Tobacco.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the brand was made in Georgia so I suppose a good start would be to lool there for help.

[Archive]

Posted By: paulstratton

Check 1997 REA catalog for some good info on Ty Cobb backs.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Ty Cobb back is Factory #33....which was situated in North Carolina.

And, is a unique back....I am of the school that does not think this card was issued as
part of the T206 set.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I know that at least 7 of the 12 known were found in Georgia. Given that it was obviously a short term promotion by ATC for the Georgia Peach, I would guess that it was only distributed in Georgia.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I am of the school that is was properly included in the T206 designation. "T206" was the arbitrary designation applied to all the white border baseball cards included with tobacco products issued by ATC between 1909 and 1911. They could have easily distinguished multiple sets such as the Drum set, the American Beauty set, the Carolina Brights set, etc. It could have been further broken down by series, etc. But the ACC authors chose to group all of the cards produced by ATC for the cigarette brands in those years with one designation, "T206".
JimB


Edited to add: I was hoping this thread would not degenerate into a debate about the inclusion of the card in the T206 set. Now here I am participating in it.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Each of the other 15 brands issued anywhere from dozens of players to more than 500 players, while the Ty Cobb brand only featured a single one, and was unquestionably printed in very small numbers. It is unlike any of the other brands in distribution as well as in the feel of the paper (glossy). It just doesn't seem consistent with what we know about the set. To me it is no more a T206 than a T213 Coupon, and maybe even less so.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

But T213s were issued through 1919. Was Coupon at ATC brand?
Jim B

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The Type I's were issued around 1910-11 and are closest in design of the three types. I'm not saying it should be part of T206, but rather that it has more in common with T206 than the Ty Cobb back. That just seems to be an anomaly, not even part of a widely distributed set.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Jim B

I am sorry, but you cannot avoid the debate as to whether this card is the 525th card
in the T206 set or it is an issue onto it's self. Furthermore, I cannot accept that this
argument can be referred to as a "degeneration". Most veteran T206 collectors that
I know consider the T206 set complete with 524 cards....period.

But, if you want to discuss this "mystery" card without getting bogged-down on this
controversy, then please do. Most of us do not know much more about it, other than
what has been posted here.

One aspect of the T206's that I strongly agree with what you just said, is that each
T-brand should have been classified as a set unto itself. With the Piedmont brand being
the "grand-daddy" of all the 15 different brands.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

Ted,
I am not arguing that it should be the 525th card. It is a red portrait - just a different back.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I know its the Red Portrait, I'd seen one many years ago. And, it reminded me of a 1910 T213-1 Cobb
with a Ty Cobb back instead of a Coupon back. This was many years before the grading craze; hence,
it was "raw" and the 1st thing I noticed about it was the "glossy" appearance on the front of this card.
The front of this card is totally unlike the fronts of any T206 cards.

I just wish some expert would come forward and provide us some valid insight on this card, as opposed
to all this speculation.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
That would be great, but all of the experts on this card are probably dead. I have always considered it a seperate issue from the "T206" set, and have never thought it belonged with the Coupons either.
Some have speculated that the card was issued in the rare Ty Cobb tobacco Tins, but to date don't have enough evidence to support it. Others beleive it was given out as a premium or give away, but again they have no proof.

The Tin argument appears the strongest to me, as there are about as many of those in existence as the cards, about 13 or 14.


Be well Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Nobody has the answer...but if you care for a theory, I think it was just a marketing campaign to sell Ty Cobb cigarettes with a small distribution in a specific region- Georgia, which was Cobb's home field. They used a different printer, different paper stock- the only thing it shared with the other brands is the red portrait. They had no interest in even one other player. I think it was just a small regionalized brand and they used Georgia's favorite son to plug it.

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

Well, we don't have any "valid" insight since we don't have an official document that will shed any light.

We do know that 5 distinct examples were found together in the state of Georgia in a book that dates back to 1907.

We also have a couple of board members who own an example.

I think the connection to coupon is unlikely because the brand released three baseball tobacco issues and placed their name on the back of each one.

Is it possible it could've been some kind of promotion run by the ATC where the cards were inserted into packs of cigarettes that were distributed in Georgia?

Just rambling out ideas...

Rob

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

robert a wrote:
"Is it possible it could've been some kind of promotion run by the ATC where the cards were inserted into packs of cigarettes that were distributed in Georgia? "

That is my best guess and if that is the case, I would think it should be considered as T206. I guess this is all opinion and conjecture.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

It would be a cross between a T213-1 and T213-2 (or even a cross between T215-1 and T215-2), because of the dark caption and a gloss.

Id call it a T206-2, a set of 1.

It is obviously not a normal T206-1. With the gloss factor, a T213-1 and T215-1 is closer to a T206 than the Cobb/Cobb.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

I think we have our next poll here:

the ty cobb back red background cobb belongs to which set?

a-t206
b-t213
c-t215
d-it should be it's own set
e-other

[Archive]

Posted By: Dylan

I thought REA sold a cobb w/cobb back about 5 years ago which had no shiny gloss present on the front of the card

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Koochin

I also believe there is one no-gloss Ty Cobb.
I'll check back through my old catalogs...

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I've always been curious who bought my Cobb/Cobb in 1990 from David Kohler at Sports Cards Plus. Was it any of you guys?

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

I know the that Lew Lipset bought a Ty Cobb Brand back and the same person sold him a the Cobb tin. That was back in 1987. Lew wrote a small note about it in The Old Judge Issue 12 August 1987. That is probably the closest we come to find the origin right now.


Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

OSeedy, out of curiosity, what did it go for at the time?

[Archive]

Posted By: DAX

Hal owns one of these I believe. I think he has been kind enough to post a picture of it before. I don't recall his being overly "glossy."

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

There is one without the gloss. That it appears to be hand-cut led Rob Lifson to the conclusion that it was some sort of proof. It was auctioned around 2000 or 2001.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

I have an idea.
It was, in fact, the original golden wonka ticket upon which the latter story of chocolate and crazy guy who spoke and acted weird was based.
First there was nougat-nut-job Cobb and 15 magical cobb portrait cards with cobb backs distributed throughout the land for children to find.....after which they were invited on a magical mystery ride through a world of dugouts, chew, and profanity.

Really, a fanstasy this wonderful just HAD to be made into a movie!

Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I wonder if Lew's seller was the original owner or received the items from the original owner. This would give credence to the theory that the cards came with the tins. Has there ever been a find outside the southeast?

I don't mind saying what I sold the Cobb/Cobb for, but would that be kosher in regard to a private sale through a dealer?

[Archive]

Posted By: masimm

I'm going to tell you guys it is true about the T206 Ty Cobb with the Ty Cobb back having a glossy front unlike any of the other T206 cards. The reason I know this is because I had one in my hands last week at an auction. I had never heard of this card before and knew nothing about it. I went to an auction in Pennsylvania and it was there. I messed up BIG TIME! I looked at it and thought it was a reprint. The front was glossy like a reprint and the back of the card read, "Ty Cobb - King of the Tobacco Smoking World". I had heard of the Sweet Caporal, Polar Bear, Old Mill, and Peidmont backs - but never the Ty Cobb back. In fact, I looked at my girlfriend and said, "That sounds stupid, just like what you would find on a reprint". We bid $100 on it anyways, but let it go for a winning bid of only $170. I drove home, looked it up on the internet and just about threw up! I've been researching this card ever since - which led me to this website. I've read where this card is valued at between 17k - 75k dollars. However, if I found one - I'm sure there are alot more out there than just 12. Well, now I know of at least 13 since last week's auction. I've collected cards for years and if you ask me - I don't even think that card is from 1909. They glossy front could not have been made back then because there were no printers with the capabilities to print glossy that I know of? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if truth be told - that card is probably from the 40's or 50's. Just one man's opinion.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

A genuine Ty Cobb back selling for $170- that doesn't sound right.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Don't worry about missing the card for $170. Consider yourself $170 richer. I would guess that there is a 99.99% chance it was a reprint or fake. There have been many, many reprints of the Cobb-backed cards made....

[Archive]

Posted By: masimm

Well, I hope it was a reprint. I haven't been able to find any information anywhere leading me to a reprint production of this card. It looked old and worn. But, that glossy front didn't look right to me - as I've seen many T206 cards in my life. The back of the card texture looked genuine except for what it said. I don't know for sure? I honestly think these Ty Cobb back cards are fakes or reprints. I wouldn't lie to you, that card sold for only $170. It was a small auction in a fire department building with only 50 people - maybe? - in attendance. If it is legit, I screwed up.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

A real one couldn't go that cheap. There would be a few people in the audience who would know its real value and it would sell for thousands...perhaps a little under market but not for less than 1% of market. Can't happen.

[Archive]

Posted By: masimm

Ok, you be the judge...

This is the card front from the auction website..it didn't provide the back of the card pictured on the website.

http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/showimage.cgi?lid=301943&type=fl&in=15

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Prizner

Very fake.

[Archive]

Posted By: masimm

Please educate me and tell me what makes it fake. I really cannot tell? If it is, how can you tell or what do you look for?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Extremely fake. You saved yourself $100.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

It's very poorly printed. Real cards use much higher quality lithography.

There are other ways to tell if you had the card in hand. The glossy paper as you saw was much too glossy because it was modern. Even the paper would have been different, but that takes a little practice to detect.

[Archive]

Posted By: masimm

Well, here is the confusing part of all of this. I arrived at the auction an hour early to see the card. There was a guy nervously asking a million questions about it while holding the card at the front desk. This card was being watched closely by the auction workers. Once I looked at it and put it down, the card disappeared to the back until the auction began. Which I thought was VERY strange. I tried to look at it the second time and was told it was in the back with some lady and it would be back. It didn't come back until the auction began. No one could tell me anything about the card other than it came from consignment. That was it. I tried to get the auctioneer to give me the name and phone number of the buyer the next day but he wouldn't do it. He told me that the buyer was a close friend of his and a big time collector. The auctioneer told me I was wasting my time because the buyer/buddy wouldn't dare sell this card. I thought to myself, "How does he know he wouldn't sell it?" Unless of course, this auction was rigged and they knew it was legit and made it where they - the auctioneer and buddy - was guaranteed to get the card. I don't know? The entire situation was fishy from the beginning.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

The whole thing is phony and sounds like a big act. No serious collector would buy that card.

[Archive]

Posted By: masimm

Well, it sounds like I did the right thing. Of course the card looked better in person than that picture off the website. I just didn't know what to do at the time, so I passed on the card. If this card is legit, we will hear about it as the "BIG FIND in Pennsylvania" in the near future. Thanks for your insight and information. I feel a bit at ease now...

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

sounds ridiculously phony...yet innocent at the same time.

pete in mn

[Archive]

Posted By: masimm

You're right Pete! To someone like myself who didn't even know the "Ty Cobb King of the Smoking Tobacco World" card existed, how could I have bid on this card? It was all innocent. Maybe the auctioneer and his buddy who won the card really did believe it was legit though? I'm not sure why they would go through such dramatics to fool a crowd of 50 people in a small town of Pennsylvania. I seriously doubt they believed anyone in that room had 75 thousand dollars in their pocket to throw around at a Ty Cobb baseball card.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I believe he was using a "J Peterman" expression from Seinfeld....

[Archive]

Posted By: rand

that card was 100% fake, check ebay as it may show up there. there has been a series of fake cards (made to look old) on ebay for years.

you'll know the auction because it will say...."found at an estate auction" or something like that...

no plug to mastro here..but they are auctioning off a Cobb/cobb in a month or so.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

Leon...not a j peterman quote...but reminded me of a something that older couple who purchased the kramer painting said.

pete in mn

[Archive]

Posted By: Andy

T213-2 Coupons have a glossy front and they were printed in 1914.

I don't see any reason to question your story, but you must be new to collecting vintage cards no? You say that you have been collecting for years and you never heard of the Cobb w/ Cobb back. If you want to collect prewar cards, you should really read this board and learn more about them. They are a wonderful thing to collect, but you need to constantly be educating yourself so that you aren't taken by unscrupulous people.

Welcome to the board and I hope you enjoy building your collection as much as I do.

Thanks,

Andy