rebacked hindu Matty

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Posted By: Rob

In the piedmont wagner post Scott mentioned a rebacked Matty that was graded PSA 7 then regraded by SGC as a 50.

1)If it wasn't for the "impossible" back (lets say it was rebacked with a brown hindu back instead of red), how could it have been discovered that it was rebacked? Why didn't the grading companies discover it, and how can other collectors watch their own back when buying raw to avoid buying a professionally-rebacked card?

thanks,
Rob

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Your comment......

"..and how can other collectors watch their own back when buying raw to avoid buying a professionally-
rebacked card?"

Most of the veteran T206 collectors that still buy ungraded cards....like me....would never be fooled by a
"fake" T206 like this one. We know the difference, it's the "graded-only" card collectors that would fall for
this type of a fake because they rely solely on a 3rd-party to define their cards.

I brought up the subject of this "Red Hindu" Matty months ago in a Thread. And, if I recall correctly, there
was no interest in it. It's been documented in the T206 Museum site for many years, now.
Mistakes like these occur. However, fortunately, very seldom.

And, don't forget the PSA graded "fake" T206 Joe Doyle error card that showed up at a show several years
ago. Again, it got pass many dealers in the hobby that assumed it was authentic, just because it had been
professionally graded.

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Posted By: dstudeba

Hi Rob, I think you have a legitimate concern. I disagree with Ted and believe that the technology and art to rebacking cards is getting good enough to fool many of the veteran raw collectors. It is not a concern for me since I don't collect rare backs, but if you are interested in rare backs I would be concerned.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

is to be able to handle the card. If you are able to feel it and examine the edges I don't think many rebacks would fool most veteran collectors. They might fool a novice, the thing to look for is the feel, most rebacks are too think and very rigid. Simply compare the flex and feel to another t206 common, then inspect the edges with a loupe(sometimes not required) and you will usually see where the edges have been roughened up to hide the seam. It is normally quite abnormal wear when compared to any low grade t206

NOW, if this reback somehow got into a holder it is going to be much more difficult to examine. At this point you will need someone quite knowledgable to detect the work.

I was approached with a T206 cobb with am improper back at a National 2 or 3 years ago and it was readily apparent it was a reback, but the owner had no idea. I don't know how much he paid for it, but it wasn't cheap.

Scott

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Posted By: JimB

Ted,
I bought two raw T206 commons from you last year. I asked specifically if they had any creases or wrinkles because I was upgrading so that my T206 set would be completely crease-free. You looked at them and assured me they were crease and wrinkle-free. When they arrived, they both had wrinkles. They were not major, but they were visible to the naked eye. I believe this was an honest mistake and you offered to refund my money and take them back. My point is that if you cannot alway find a wrinkle when you are specifically asked to look for that, how can you tell us that you would find a professional rebacking job that both PSA and SGC missed. I know you would have known that a red Hindu cannot exist with a Matty Port front, but what if it was a brown Hindu? I am not a collector who gets all his cards graded. 90% of my T206 set, which would probably grade in the ex range is raw. I enjoy flipping through my notebook and looking at them that way. I just get really tired of the condescending attitude towards people who appreciate the contributions grading services have provided to the hobby.
JimB

Edited to correct a mistake saying that I get all my cards graded, when in fact I do not. It was a typo.
same edit - was correct originally.

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Posted By: John

"Most of the veteran T206 collectors that still buy ungraded cards....like me....would never be fooled by a
"fake" T206 like this one. We know the difference, it's the "graded-only" card collectors that would fall for
this type of a fake because they rely solely on a 3rd-party to define their cards."


..YAWN..........



or...

"Most of the veteran T206 collectors that still buy ungraded cards....like me....would never be fooled by a
"fake" T206 like this one."

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Posted By: John

"And, don't forget the PSA graded "fake" T206 Joe Doyle error card that showed up at a show several years
ago. Again, it got pass many dealers in the hobby that assumed it was authentic, just because it had been
professionally graded."

Wasn't that SGC????

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Posted By: PC

Jim and John -- you have made my day.

edited to add: John, yes it was in an SGC holder --http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html


[A more apropos reference to the Simpson's Comic Book Guy has yet to be posted anywhere.]

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Posted By: John

PC,

Thanks thought so, the whole Keith O thing….I just would have thought the EXPERT would have known that……that’s what happens I guess when you rely on 3rd party to get your news etc.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Also, on the other forum, I posted scans of a rebacked T206 Drum Red Portrait Cobb PSA 2 that was in a Mastro auction a few years back. This one made it through PSA and deep into the auction process with Mastro, until some people caught it and Mastro pulled the card. On the Drum Cobb, it is a combo that could exist, but was a sloppy job - you could even see some glue stains on the card.

There was some guy in NY around this time period 1998-2001 that was winning the rare back lots in Oser auctions, then taking the backs and putting them on HOF'ers - thus, we had the rebacked Red Hindu Matty, a Carolina Brights Green Portrait Cobb, the Drum Red Portrait Cobb and a few others thanks to this guy (I cannot remember his name - maybe others here remember who he was).

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

OK, I think you by your last sentence.....

"I just get really tired of the condescending attitude towards people who appreciate the contributions
grading services have provided to the hobby."

you are implying that, I am "bashing" Graded cards, collectors who prefer them, and the entire Grading
Industry.
Well, that's a load of "crap"....all I said, was exactly what Scott Brockelman reiterated in his follow-up
post.

Jim....are you tired of Scott's comments, too ? Were his comments "bashing" Graded stuff ?

Here again, read what I said regarding Grading Co. mistakes......"Mistakes like these occur. However,
fortunately, very seldom."

I am getting extremely tired of a certain mindset on this Forum, that if anyone dares to say even the
slightest comments, that may be misconstrued, regarding Graded cards....they are then subject to a
barage of unjustified personal criticism and innuendo.

Damn it, I acquire graded cards, too....and I submit some of my cards to be graded; but, for the most
part I prefer ungraded cards.

Is that a "carnal sin" that my allegiance is not 100% with the Grading Services ?

And, now we'll have all the usual suspects join in on "chorus".......se la vie.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

"Most of the veteran T206 collectors that still buy ungraded cards....like me....would never be fooled by a
"fake" T206 like this one. We know the difference, it's the "graded-only" card collectors that would fall for
this type of a fake because they rely solely on a 3rd-party to define their cards."

I rest my case. That sounds condescending to me. If condescension was not at least part of what you wanted to get across, you may like to think about finding a more skillful way to word your thoughts on subjects like this in the future. I stand by what I said before. I am not going to get into a 300 post debate about card-grading or what you meant to say. Good people can disagree.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

Scott's post has an entirely different tone from yours and is not offensive or condescending at all.
JimB

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Posted By: John

c'est la vie

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I think the grading companies are GREAT for the Hobby! I would much rather trust a third party's assumption of the card and the grade than the seller's! If you don't believe that, just buy a VG/EX card from Larry Fristch and wait until you open the package and find what we would call a POOR card come out of the box! Grading companies do make mistakes. Grading companies are sometimes influenced by the submitter. Nothing on Earth is perfect. I do like the grading companies and ALL of my cards are either graded or will be sent out to get graded by SGC in a week or two.

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Posted By: Rob

Everyone, I ask this in the nicest way possible, please don't argue raw vs graded.

i'll reask my original questions ....
If it wasn't for the "impossible" back (lets say it was rebacked with a brown hindu back instead of red), how could it have been discovered that it was rebacked? Why didn't the grading companies discover it, and how can other collectors watch their own back when buying raw to avoid buying a professionally-rebacked card?

thanks all for keeping somewhat on topic. if the topic is boring, then ignore this thread and ya'll can restart a new topic on graded vs raw.

Rob

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
Here are a few examples of rebacks:

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scott E,
These were done by the man or men(I believe there were 2) that you were thinking about. One of them is quite active on EBAY and appears to be selling only legitimate cards, so perhaps he was an unwilling participant or has changed his ways. Be well Brian


PS I have copies of all of Oser catalogs from that period, and so does Art Martineau, and we have discussed which cards are still in the hobby, and which may have been destroyed making these fakes.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

There os nothing boring about this topic....far from it. As, recently a member on this board paid
a good amount for a "RE-BACKED" Ty Cobb (bat off) card that was in a graded holder. This Cobb
had a "150" back....however, this Cobb exists only in the 350/460 series. If I recall correctly, the
Grading Co. was not at fault in this case. Apparently, the plastic holder had been breached, this
wrong-back Cobb was inserted, and the plastic was resealed and put on ebay.

If my take on this is incorrect, I am sure someone will clarify it.

TED Z

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Posted By: scott brockelman

The rough and abnormal edges are apparent even in the slabs.

Scott

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

As well as the staining from the glue and the chipping on the sides which plague these Frankenstein's. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Rob

awesome pics and info w/the Cobbs, very much appreciated! The glue and abnormally rough edges ALL AROUND are apparant now that you've pointed them out. At first glance I knew the edges were rough, but not to the extent that on every side they were chipped and wavy. Something to look at now!

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

<"If you are able to feel it and examine the edges I don't think many rebacks would fool most veteran collectors.">

<"The rough and abnormal edges are apparent even in the slabs.">

<"As well as the staining from the glue and the chipping on the sides which plague these Frankenstein's.">


That may be true for the most part but there are rebacked cards (actually two halves put together) that have near perfect vintage cuts and edges as well as the correct thickness...which is the key.

As long as they are not too freakishly odd, vintage cards can be made to fool almost every collector. With seemingly perfect edges, no stains, perfect tone, correct size and thickness it would be hard to tell.

Size and thickness are the most difficult obstacle to overcome...this is why I am always leery of trimmed or hand-cut cards (regardless of the series) that have rare or different backs or fronts.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

when I saw them on eBay - I followed their auctions for a few weeks and they were selling legitimate cards and have a high feedback. So, I thought I must have been mistaken and now have even forgotten the eBay I.D. - I wanted to think one of the person's initials was GM - am I right or wrong - this, I really don't remember that well (one of those things I simply forgot when I quit collecting, as it didn't interest me to remember the names of these shady persons at the time)?

Anyway, here is the rebacked Drum Cobb that was in a Mastronet auction a few years back (Mastro Inc. was Mastronet when this card was auctioned).

Question for Brian - was that SC 350 Powers T206 real that you outbid me on on eBay? I have been meaning to ask you about that one and forgot. I didn't go too high, b/c I simply wanted to win it to see if it was legit or rebacked. If legit, that is one important card!!!!!!

Damn - I couldn't upload the Drum Cobb - file size too large!

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Posted By: leon

As I said in another thread you can use the photobucket s/w and post any size scan you want. The Net54 temp files only hold up to 128k scans. I will always help anyone load scans including you...take care

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

However, Brian Weisner already e-mailed me and I sent the scans of the Cobb to him. He should be posting them later for me. Thanks again for your offer!

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Posted By: leon

I remember that Cobby/Drum being on ebay. I called the then president of Beckett and offered to buy the card if he would guarantee it was real. He wouldn't do it. His stance was that they slabbed it so it had to be good. I know the regime has changed over there but I never did care for that one.....It was about $2700 as a buy it now...or minimum bid, I forget which one. I believe Wayne Grove worked there at the time too and wasn't real happy about the whole situation. regards

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

he has been telling everyone he owns for years now. Then we could have an image of a real Drum Cobb to compare these rebacked Drum Cobbs with after Brian posts the PSA 2 I sent him scans of that was in a Mastro catalog!

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

The original image was larger and included some of the page from the Mastro catalog. At least you can see the card here in this image and tell that it has the same rough edges and you can also see the evidence of glue - even in the slabbed scan in the catalog.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scott,
Sorry, I was feeding the kids when you sent the scan. I will try to post a real Cobb Drum when they go to bed.... Be well Brian

PS The inmates are running the asylum...

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

gotta go pickup Kaitlyn from her grandparents. Just thought I would get in a few posts here and on the other board before things get a little wild! I managed to cut the image down to the above size and was able to post it, so no big deal. I do hope you post your take on Piedmont and SC Wagners later for us to read!

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scott,
This Cobb/Drum comes from the 1998 Festberg auction. The scan stinks, but I have seen the card and it is real. Be well Brian

PS I'm working on the Wagner piece, but it may take me a few days at this rate...

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Brian- Do you remember what the card sold for?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Two observations:

1) Does anyone appreciate how funny John is? Those pictures....

2) I'm starting to think that Brian may have the most intereting collection this side of Leon on this entire board.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Dan,
Unfortunately no. I was working 50-60 hours a week and chasing skirts the rest of the time, so cards took a back seat. If anybody knows, it's probably Art Martineau or Lew Lipset, but who knows?

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Newman... I mean Lichtman,

Anybody who doesn't appreciate how funny John is by now should be kicked off the board. Not only is he quick witted, but his photo shopping skills are legendary. In fact I think John made all of the Piedmont Wagners and I wish he'd send me one to fill out my set.


But, since I only collect rare backs I need one with a Drum......


Be well Brian

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I probably had that Festberg catalog and threw it out years ago to make some room.

BTW - Jeff, I would bet Brian Weisner has a great collection. I know he has some of my old rare backs (along with thousands of others) - including that PSA 7 Red Hindu Konetchy Glove Low!

Festberg use to have some great stuff (though there are those who didn't like him, but I was always pleased with what little I would get from him)..........the memories that catlog page bring!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The frayed edges on the rebacked cards - are they readily apparent or is that a phenomenon that occurs over time, well after slabbing?

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

in NY who can get you a Drum Wagner at the right price!

Jeff - I have no idea personally as to what the answer to your question would be. I guess the only person who could answer that would be one who has rebacked a card and sent it in to a grading company and had it slabbed.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scott,
Here are just a few higlights from the same auction:


1. 82 T204 Ramley's including 2 square frames and 4 TTT backs.(I'll lay odds on who owns those now) and he likes Planks tooo...

2. 194 Old Mill's including a Stengel Rookie

3. Complete set of Mayos' N300
4. 21 of 25 D304's avg vg/ex condition
5. e94 Cobb in vg/ex to ex condition
6. e93 set with all of the key cards vg/ext to nm
7. 14 T5's including Collins Lajoie Mack and collins.

No need to continue, because most of these cards are probably owned by board members..

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jeff,
I think the frayed edges are more a result of the tools used versus any slabbing. Personally, I doubt there are more than 10 rebacked cards in legitimate holders. And that number is probably high. I try to keep pictures or scnas of all of the known rare backs just to keep track of them. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

What does a "wrinkle" have to do with it ?

As you said..........
"My point is that if you cannot alway find a wrinkle when you are specifically asked to look for that,
how can you tell us that you would find a professional rebacking job that both PSA and SGC missed."

Can we raise this discussion to a higher level....we are not talking about "wrinkles or crinkles". We are
talking about T206 fronts with incompatible T-brand backs. The majority of re-backed "fakes", that are
out there, are obvious to me right off the bat. They can be detected by anyonewith a fair amount of
T206 savvy. Most of these fakes have been re-backed by amateurs, who are not sufficiently knowledge-
able on T206's to realize that, that particular front/back combination does not exist.

This was all I was trying to convey with my initial post, reponding to Rob's comment......

"and how can other collectors watch their own back when buying raw to avoid buying a professionally-
rebacked card?"

However, you chose to construe my words in a manner other than what I intended. I guess you have
some subjective kind of problem with me.....because this is not the first time you have tried to tell me
what I am thinking. I do not understand why......anyhow, there are more important things in life......
so I will not even try.