Mastro Auction Descriptions

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Posted By: barrysloate

No problem Shane- it allowed me to make the 200th post.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Shane, I hope you don't own a business or are involved in customer service. Whether a person has bought anything from a business is irrelavent. If I walk in to McDs and ask how the food is prepared and with what, it doesn't matter if I've ever bought anything there before. As a business owner/manager, you better be bending over backwards to make want to spend my money with you. I don't blindly spend my money, especially large sums of it. Salespeople must salivate when they see you since, from your posts, you obviously don't ask any questions before you buy anything. You sir, are what's known as a sucker.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"I've spent 30K on Mastro auctions in the past 9 months. Do you think I deserve to know how the McNuggets are cooked?"

You should've asked before you ate them.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, Paul, if I did that then according to Shane I'm not entitled to any information as I'm not yet a customer.

So, I'm asking -- am I entitled to a straightforward answer to a very simple question from Doug - or not?

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Posted By: shane Leonard

Jay,
I do own my own business and I do my research on what I purchase. I can tell you that if you aren't my customer, I owe you nothing. If you are trying to use my services for free or trying to throw me under the bus, I don't want to talk to you. My point is, the question has been answered, just not point blank like you would want him to. You can think I am a sucker if you want. I couldn't care what you think.

Jeff
That $30,000 in nine months is great. I have sent them $169K in the last year as well. I am very aware of what goes on with grading cards and I am not ignorant to think that a 1933 Goudey PSA 9 came from someones collection untouched for 74 years. To each his own on how you view this, but come on be real! I don't want to buy a card that has been recolored or trimmed and I don't want PSA/SGC holdering those either. This thread sheads light to issues that should be exposed, but Mastro does not practice uncommon/unethical alteration to cards. If I am wrong, I certainly would discontinue using them as my primary contact.

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Posted By: shane Leonard

Jeff,
You are entitled to know everything that you want. Pick up a phone and ask him nicely and I am sure that he would help you with your questions. If you are going to place him on trial, you probably are not going to get the answer that you are looking for.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Shane, I find it very strange that someone with such a relationship with Mastro would ask for less, not more, information from them on cards you are purchasing. Makes no sense at all.

Shane, you're right. I'm going to call Doug tomorrow or Friday and ask him these questions and then report back, verbatim, what he told me. I think that all of us deserve to know such important information about Mastro's practices, not just those that spend large dollars with them. How does that sound?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Shane, how in the world do you build a business if you aren't willing to answer questions that are asked by potential customers? That's a formula for failure.

You may be a lemming and go along with whatever the crowd is doing, but I will not condone accept altering cards as part of collecting. People like you who don't want to rock boat allow these people to continue altering cards and selling altered cards as undoctored. It's people like Jim, Jeff and myself and that will hopefully change the current status quo.

If no one is willing to speak out, then change will never happen.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: shane Leonard

Jeff,
I feel comfortable with Mastro. When I have a reason not to be comfortable with them, I will spend the same as Jay does with them.

Regards,
Shane

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Shane, that's wonderful that you feel comfortable with them. I hope to be as well. And while you feel comfortable that Doug will be more forthcoming over the phone, 1 on 1, he refused to answer Jim Crandell's question about Mastro's altering practices when they met in NYC. Perhaps his policy has changed since then.

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Posted By: shane Leonard

Jay
You do need to answer questions to help current customers and potential customers. I agree with you on this.
I am not a lemming -whatever the f(*&^ that is.
I am not condoning alteration of cards, please don't get me wrong on this point. I want my cards to be enhanced free. I believe that Mastro does not cross this line. It is that simple. If you don't believe this, then Mastro is somewhere I would not spend your money.
I can rock a boat, don't worry bro. I can rock it until every deadbeat falls out of it.
I am glad that you have spoken up so that people are aware. Here is a little secret though.....it has been happening along time. This may not be an excuse for it to continue, but it will.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Anyone feel like taking a deep breath and counting to ten?

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Posted By: T206Collector

"So, I'm asking -- am I entitled to a straightforward answer to a very simple question from Doug - or not?"

Sure. But it is remarkable to me that you do not realize that none of your bantering would have been necessary if you had picked up the phone and (a) called before you spent $30K on baseball cards, like a diligent consumer would have; and (b) if you called after you found out something about your purchases that concerned you.

Do you really think that the environment that you have created on this thread is conducive to getting constructive answers to your questions?

Bad customers are bad customers, even if they spend $30K on the product.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

First, I never realized that Mastro altered cards until after Doug mentioned it out here. Next, when you buy graded cards you assume that you are only dealing with the bona fides of the grading company -- it was not until Doug made his admission that I learned I had to trust them as well not to try to slip something past PSA or SGC. Finally, Jim Crandell created a very nice environment when he met with Doug and asked the same question and got a 'no comment' from him. Doug came out here on this thread and was evasive in his responses to the same question -- until he finally came clean (sort of). So, perhaps whatever so-called environment that was created here worked to get some answer out of him.

And finally, I make no apology for airing my questions and criticisms on a public board of like-minded collectors. I think it would be weasly to pick up the phone, get the information and then not share it with the rest of you. Or get on the phone, make Doug feel as if he is having a private conversation with me and then blast the info out here - also weak in my opinion. What is the purpose of this board if not to air all of these issues publicly?

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Posted By: jay behrens

How does Jeff's wanting clarification on Doug's answer being a bad customer? Doug's initial answer was ambiguous, at best. Even I wanted clarification because Doug claimed that Mastro would be following SGC/PSA guideline, yet he had early come on this board and stated that Mastro does things to cards that violate these guidelines. Why anyone wouldn't want that clarified is beyond me.

Shane, I've been in this hobby a very long time. Few on this board can claim to have been around longer. As Scott Elkins pointed out, trimming and altering cards was never a real issue until Jim Copeland came on the scene and made all the doctoring cards a worthwhile propositions. I remember being set up at a show at the Moscone Center in SF. Someone asked me if I had any oversized t206s and really low grade 33 Goudey's. I asked if that's what he collected. He said, no. He wanted the t206s to trim down and try to sell to Copeland and Goudeys to turn to pulp so that he could fix up other Goudeys with original stock.

That was my wake up call to what was really happening in the hobby. Even back then, I never chased high grade cards, but from that point forward, I never looked at a NM card the same way again.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: shane Leonard

Jeff
I would encourage you to call Doug to get whatever information that you need. I do agree with Jim that because of this thread he probably won't be giving you any earth shattering information. Give it a try.

Regards,
Shane

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Posted By: joe brennan

4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's!"

The Charles Bray Piedmont Wagner came with a correspondance letter he wrote to the person he purchased the card from. It was clear from the letter that the owner did not know the difference between Heinie Wagner and Honus Wagner. Someone in the hobby who would have printed a sheet of T206 reprints with a Wagner on it, even then would have known the difference. YOu are right that the provenance only goes to this point in 1953 (I believe), but it suggests that the owner probably had them for a while. Charles Bray used to advertise in the Sporting News. I imagine the person contacted him that way. My guess is he (the seller) was related to someone close to the printers and had one of those Piedmont sheets and cut it up with scizzors. The Bray Piedmont Wagner was obviously handcut.
JimB


If I read the letter correctly, Bray was stating the difference between the two Wagners, (Hienie and Honus) Never was there a reference that it was actually Honus. And the Plank back was never stated? Where do you tie all these together from this letter. Where does it say he purchased them and it was Honus and Plank with a piedmont back? I need you to show me the tie. Thanks, Joe

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: shane Leonard

Jay,
That is the stuff that I don't want to be apart of. Clearly a different animal than laying down a corner or cleaning a wax stain off with a pair of pantyhose. I don't want a card in my collection that has had a haircut.

Shane

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Posted By: T206Collector

...but I think you handled this one quite poorly. The only reason its any of my business is because you aired your b*tch on a public chatboard that I frequent. I find your cause neither noble nor necessary.

For the Nth time, if SGC will grade it and guarantee it, I really could care less because any future owner of that card is protected from anything untoward that may one day be discovered about the 100-year history of that card.

The day that you purchase a card graded by SGC that was overgraded or improperly graded and SGC will not comp you the difference in what you paid and the appropriate value of that card if properly graded, then I'll be interested in hearing it. But in the meantime, what value you think has been added by Mastro guaranteeing cards that were subsequently graded by SGC and guaranteed by SGC is beyond me. You'll never know what happened in the other 99 years of that card's history -- and you really should be comfortable with that.

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Posted By: Alan

My 2 cents...
The folks who have been harping on Mastro for their, "lack of disclosure,", please show me an example of a single business anywhere that is willing to admit how it squeezes every penny of profit from every possible area. No business would be so forthcoming! I for one applaud Doug Allen as well as Steve Verkman and other dealers who willingly respond to this forum (frankly, I am amazed anyone would continue to respond after the way some board members attack every letter typed by these dealers). I completely understand the frustration from a collector's point of view, but please think how any business would respond to your questions. If Mastro or any other auction house removes creases, erases marks, etc, do you really expect them to own up to it? Would you if you were in a similar position? Even if the auction house is considered to be completely trustworthy, do you really think the occasional slip up, error, or ommission will not occur? All of these auction houses are in business to make money, not to specifically cater to a handful of customers who believe they are waging a moral crusade.
I would also like to state that I deplore any alterations made to a card after its manufacture, but without a uniform code of standards for the industry the debate and attacks will produce nothing of substance. I doubt a uniform code will ever exist (barring a major calamity involving high dollar cards and at least one major auction house) because the sports auction business is highly competitive. For everyone who complains about this issue on a thread like this, the only way to get your voice heard is through your wallet. Attacking dealers like Doug when he willingly posts on this forum will only drive other collectors from your position. Instead, create a new thread (if needed) to call for a boycott of any auction house that does not conform to the standards you agree upon.
Bottom line: These are busineses run for a profit. It is against their best financial practice to disclose all that is being requested, ergo, it will cost them money to make the disclosures. Ergo, they will not (nor should they have to) do it.
Alan Elefson

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, why does everything have to come back to you issuing yet another valentine to SGC? And who asked Mastro to 'guarantee' anything? The point is, I don't know what the hell happened to the cards I buy after Mastro receives them and before they sell the cards -- and I would like to know that information. If I can't see the alteration how am I going to ask SGC to guarantee the grade? Buyers are at a significant disadvantage when dealing with an auction house that alters cards before selling them to the public. I just think it's fair that we're told what they do to the cards after they receive them from consignors. And for the last time, the only reason Doug got dragged over the coals here is because he refused to provide a clear answer - for days.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Do you REALLY like SGC or are you just saying so?
Just busting your chops and not singling you out, it seems the whole discussion has become a bit redundant so maybe it's time to take it O/T or something. Seinfeld anyone?

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Posted By: T206Collector

"How does Jeff's wanting clarification on Doug's answer being a bad customer?"

That's not what makes him a bad customer. His method is. Not that Jeff cares (obviously). His view is essentially, I spent $30,000 on cardboard, I deserve answers to all questions, wherever and however I want. I respectfully disagree to his entitlement to anything other than what he paid for.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Alan, I agree with you what you wrote. I think the funniest thing about this thread is that Doug, despite his refusal to directly answer the questions posed, actually comes across as painfully honest in a way -- because any fraudster would simply say, "of course, we don't alter cards" - and then alter them anyway. That's what I expect from auction houses because as everyone can agree, money is the bottom line.

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Posted By: T206Collector

For me, it all boils down to protecting my investment -- whether it is $3 or $30,000. Given the potential for alterations on 100 year old cardboard, it is insane not to have that investment protected by a guarantee of no alteration. If you have a guarantee of no alteration, then anything that happened to that card prior to your acquisition of that card is covered -- period. There should be no need for any further discussion on the topic. "S", "G" and "C" are three letters than sum all of the foregoing up for me so I don't have to keep writing it down long-form.

I continue to be perplexed by some collectors' needs to prove the purity of a 100-year old piece of cardboard, beyond a money-backed guarantee.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, I wonder if Doug Allen thinks I'm a bad customer. I'm guessing no.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...yes. So what?

I'm sure he loves having to come on here and defend his business practices to you in a public forum. It's his favorite thing. He'll probably send you a Christmas card thanking you for being such a nice guy.

You seem to lament that "money is the bottom line," but then you say that you deserve answers based on $30K in purchases. You may be a strong customer, but your $30K in purchases was only $X ahead of the second bidder in all those auctions, i.e., remove yourself from those purchases and they don't lose $30K.

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Posted By: Peter SpaethBrian S, where are you? We could keep this going for another 200 posts at least.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, funny how that works: if you give money to a business you expect straightforward answers. I wonder how my business would do if I told my clients that I won't defend my practices or respond to questions. I'd do real well.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...of your questioning. That's my only point.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Paul, thanks being one of the masses that prefers to stick their head in the sand.

My issue is not with SGC. They don't alter cards for resale. My issue is with the people that do altering. I don't care if it's detectable or not. To me, it's still wrong and what Doug claimed went on at Mastro is wrong in my book. That's why I wanted the clarification.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I don't see where how much business Jay has done with Mastro should enter into it. He is a knowledgeabl;e guy and has valid questions. Doug would no doubt be surprised at how much business I have done because in the past I have bought through dealers in addition to under my own name--yet I don't expect any different treatment than Jay.

I sort of come at this the same way as Jeff(wow). I was stunned when Doug admitted to altering cards on Net 54 and then promised to get back to us after talking with Forman and Orlando. No explanation was forthcoming. Then at a moderate sized collectors dinner I hosted (Barry was there) he flat out refused to comment on how they altered cards suggesting that he had caused enough controversy already. Then he comes on here, grandstands and refuses to answer direct questions about his company's business practices until finally he sort of confesses that they have changed their policy(Double Wow).

Shane--you are a good hobby friend and I think you are a smart guy but I think you are wrong on this one.

Jim

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Posted By: T206Collector

"Paul, thanks being one of the masses that prefers to stick their head in the sand."

I prefer to call myself a vulgar realist.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Doug did say much earlier in this thread that he would be out of town for a couple of days picking up consignments, and would not be able to respond during this time. Why not at least wait until he is back in the office, then continue this. I think at this point he will be compelled to say something.

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Posted By: shane leonard

Jim,
I don't know how I am wrong, but am always willing to listen. I don't like altered cards. I pay for SGC/PSA to guarantee that they are not altered. I know how to remove a crease, I just can't do it without ruining the card-so I don't do it. I don't pay anyone to "improve" my cards and I don't want a tampered card.
Jim, you and I have discussed this before and we agree to disagree on the fact that wiping a card down to remove wax or a dust is not a foul. Laying down a corner or smashing a wrinkle down is something I don't have a problem with either. After this, I got a problem with it.

Email me directly Jim if you care to discuss furthur.

SL

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

So Boxingcardman, in order to make use of the California law, one would have to prove both that an alteration took place, and that the seller was aware of that. I bet that is more difficult than it sounds.

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Posted By: Sean C

We already have an admission from Doug that they have done so in the past without disclosing it to the winning buyer(s). Such an admission would probably go a long way should someone ever decide to sue Mastro.

Quoting

So Boxingcardman, in order to make use of the California law, one would have to prove both that an alteration took place, and that the seller was aware of that. I bet that is more difficult than it sounds.

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Posted By: MikeU

"Shane, I hope you don't own a business or are involved in customer service. Whether a person has bought anything from a business is irrelavent. If I walk in to McDs and ask how the food is prepared and with what, it doesn't matter if I've ever bought anything there before. As a business owner/manager, you better be bending over backwards to make want to spend my money with you. I don't blindly spend my money, especially large sums of it. Salespeople must salivate when they see you since, from your posts, you obviously don't ask any questions before you buy anything. You sir, are what's known as a sucker." - Jay B.

One difficult item for a company/business to cope with is the fact that all customers do not have a net positive gain, nor are they always right. I personally know of several companies that were forced into bankruptcy trying to please OEM's. The recurring problem is nearly uniform:

1. Not being able to tell the customer no when appropriate, particulary in the face of duress/threats.
2. Selling at zero or negative margin in hopes of partnership building and future business.
3. Identifying customers that are too difficult or costly to deal with. Refuse to quote these jobs or include sufficient money to cover "high maintenance" portion.
4. Identify qualified/significant leads and focus on them e.g. all inquiries are not equal and do not deserve the same attention. There are only so many resources and tough choices have to be made.
5. Identify your truly valuable customers e.g. high margin, low hassle etc. and treat them like gold. Many times your most valuable customers (most profit) are not simply the customers you have the most order value with.

Back on Topic:

1. I commend Doug for being truthful last year regarding wrinkle removal.
2. I also commend Doug for changing his wrinkle removal practice after the realization that this was a problem with SGC/PSA and many collectors.
3. I find it humourous that Doug = evil and Rob = innocence. REA has sent out the letter that Mastro lies about there catalog distribution and a letter that people pay more at REA because their customers know that do not alter cards, like everyone else does. Also, REA sent the letter they never resubmit cards, unlike Matro. We know publicly of two examples of cards that were rejected by one company as authentic and slabbed by another company. Apparently, authenticy issues can be resubmitted, just not grade issues. I do agree that REA market perception is probably the pinnacle of integrity in the auction business. However, Rob is a key player involved in perpetuating the biggest the "Holy Grail" sin in the hobby and has a contridiction in the reslabbing of cards deemed unathentic. In any case, is there truly a difference in integrity bewtween Rob and Doug?

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Rob did not start a post on N54 this week about his company's auction policies. Doug did. I think many posters here are losing sight of the fact that Doug started this thread to toot his company's horn only to be confronted with some difficult questions that he did not handle well directly. No one called him up and asked him to make his initial post; he did it for (presumably) his own commercial reasons. Had I been advising him I would have told him to stay out of things here and simply let the cards do the talking. However, he chose to come in here and post on behalf of Mastro and to take positions that seemed to be in conflict with his company's prior positions. Sure he was cross examined pretty hard (for a setting outside court) but if he can't take that heat he has to stay off the board in the first place.