Honus Wagner cabinet

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Saw this on ebay and decided to roll the dice a bit - I am not sure what this piece is exactly - does anyone here have any thoughts? Thanks in advance

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280098789404&rd=1&rd=1

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Posted By: chris

saw this one too, but forgot about it...would be interested to hear other opinions also..

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Posted By: D

NM

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Posted By: Joe D.

The seller mentions in the Question and Answer portion that it is NOT an acutal signature (but rather part of the negative).

I am no photo expert... and it might be a bad scan....
but this does not look like a first generation item.

Photo quality is not that nice at all.

Again in the Question and Answer - someone dated the picture taking to 1917.... and the seller mentions 1928 as a date of the piece.


I watched the item... but based on my thinking it is not a first generation photo....
I would not have come close to that amount of $... and I personally think it is worth only a fraction of what it went for.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Joe, you and I were on the same page...and considering he had a Gehrig w/wife photo in the same type of cabinet folder it just didn't seem right to me.

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Posted By: Mark L

Honus's uniform looks like the one they wore in 1912. I know that they added pinstripes a couple years later but could have used the uni in the picture at any time, I guess. Right now I can't find the website that chronicles this stuff.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/exhibits/online_exhibits/dressed_to_the_nines/database.htm

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Seller offered a 7 day return, so at worst I will send it back. Without the return policy, I would never have bid...

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Posted By: Mark L

Thanks Dan

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Posted By: Steve M.

Auction just closed yesterday. Paypal not offered. Can't imagine that you've paid yet. Are you planning on paying then getting the item and then sending it back? Or are you going to pay, get the item, and then decide?

Looked like some nice high level activity on the item. Underbidder has a history of bidding on this type of material. Three bidders over the 1K level. Might turn out to be a nice acquisition. Hard to tell.

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Posted By: Dave

I know that I have seen this picture before. It might be in the Smithsonian book but I can't remember. I do remember printing a copy of it at home and giving it to a friend about a year ago. If someone has the book available, maybe they can look it up.

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Steve

I was planning to get the item in hand before deciding fully - figured I would post it here and see if someone knew something definite about it that might save me trouble...

The image was featured in the Smithsonian Baseball book.

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Posted By: Steve f

Looks like a cut n paste dugout image was this possible at such high quality? The bluish fading is weird. The way the frame is shaped (pointing downward into his head) doesn't seem thought out. The seller appears honest and knowledgeable, but I'm not so sure I agree on this. His shoes are shiny, so it may well be a studio shot. Skeptical here,hope I'm wrong, that's a lotta dough for even an old reprint -Once bitten twice shy.

I'd like to hear some other evals.

Chris, Do you have a scan of the Smithsonian page?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't like the fact that these photos are in the foldout type of cabinet that you usually see reserved for graduation or family photos. Not to mention this guys dates are way off especially on the Gehrig photo which he says is from 1927, pencil written in "1928" which is odd since the Yankees didn't wear uniforms with the NY on the front until 1936.

Good luck to you Chris - I hope it's a real first generation photo.

edited to add ebay link: http://tinyurl.com/27pnrx

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Posted By: Mark

have some kind of color variation from being in the sleeve? At least an outline from being in the holder for many years.

I am not saying its not real, just looking for some kind of fading for being that many years old in the jacket.

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Posted By: Chris Bland

I am pretty certain that the photo and the green frame are not original to each other (the studio names are different). I am not really considering the green frame as a true part of the cabinet.

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Posted By: Anonymous

If I am not mistaken, the picture in the Smithsonian book has the same bluish tint on the bottom as well. I can check when I get home if someone else doesn't have it handy.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My guess is it isn't genuine.

There are too many things wrong with it. Including most 1900s cabinets aren't this color and usually have some sort of embossment. The stamp on back is similar to an 1800s stamp (crayon portraits are old time). There are famous folks cabinets with faux 'compliments of' signatures like this, but they are usually entirely on the mount, not straddling the photo and mount. The folder is vintage, but has nothing to do with the photo, as it's from a different studio. The photo wouldn't be from 1928 as the seller describes. Not only did they not make cabinets in 1928, but Wagner would have been 54 in 1928 and he retired in 1917. The image has a cross hatching background which is unusual. Why would Wagner, a lifelong resident of Pittsburgh, be posing in a Pirates uniform in Kingston NY? It's not impossible for Wagner to have a photo taken in Kingston NY (I had a Cap Anson street clothes cabinet shot in Syracuse), but wouldn't it seem more likely for it to be taken in Pennsylvania or a big MLB city like Chicago or Washington DC?

Genuine photos can have an out of the ordinary, maybe even strange quality, maybe even two. This one, and the description, has a whole bunch of incongruities.

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Posted By: Chris Bland

I am going to have to back out of this one - too many red flags. I guess its one of those times where its too good to be true (my first thought when I won it for that price - if it were real and period it would have had a lot more interest).

Thanks to David for his emails to me about the item and to all of you who chimed in with your insight; you guys really helped me out.

Chris

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Posted By: Dave F

I would back out as well..however, to avoid a possible negative I would offer the seller at this point to pay for seller fees. Don't know what else you could really do.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As the seller's description has clear, unarguable errors (1928 date, folder original part of photo), it's reasonable for a bidder to take back bids. If a bidder discovered a seller misdated a baseball card by 11+ years or the 'original' box for the toy is not original, it would be fair enough for a bidder to take back a bid. It's the responsibility of the seller to get the material facts correct.

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Posted By: chris bland

I am going to offer to pay his seller fees plus a little extra for his trouble. I dont think he is being dishonest, i am sure he doesnt know any better what it really is than I do.

If I have to take a negative, I can live with that moreso than the hit to my pocketbook...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I sort of got the impression that the seller innocently bought the Wagner and Gehrig
at an antique store or flea market or such. I notice he lives in NY
State. Of course, innocent or not, anyone can look up and see when Wagner
played. And most would figure out that "Original 1928" and "image from 1917 or
before" are mutually exclusive. I know Chris figured the seller simply had the wrong
year, but it makes you wonder how the seller figured 1928 was the year. Even if
the cabinet was original, 1928 would be a strange choice. Most sellers, photo experts
or not, would assume it dated to 1917 or before.

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Posted By: Greg

I believe the photo is the same one used on well known rare pinback that says "Honus Wagner for Sheriff".

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Posted By: Anonymous

If you and the seller agree not to complete the transaction ebay will refund the fees. If there are inconsistencies in his auction, or misrepresenting an item you are in the right, and dont have to complete payment, and wont be found of any wrong doing in a dispute.

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Posted By: Denny

A Pocketbook!? (justa jokin')

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Kyle

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150106389992&indexURL=3&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

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Posted By: Steve f

Maybe it's the European Carry-All.