$80 Down the Drain / I Knew Better

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Posted By: Matt E.

Not sure who I am more mad at:
Myself
GAI
or the Seller who placed the black piece of paper behind the card.
Card is clearly short, but it is the "first graded".

Nice customized holder with an 1/8th inch gap.
Card on the right is the sellers scan from Ebay and the left is mine I made a few minutes ago.

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Posted By: Dave

I don't know that I wouldn't call that just really well worn. I have a couple T206's similar that aren't trimmed just rubbed down over time.

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Posted By: Matt E.

Mesured it against the other couple hundred T205's I have. Came up short every time.

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Posted By: Paul

I have a few short cards that are not trimmed. Cards were miscut all the time back then. Looks like a well worn miscut card IMHO.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

just well-worn...miscut, like mentioned above. look at the corner wear, very natural and obviously shows its age...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree that the card is not trimmed. Why would someone trim it to look like that, with rounded corners? Miscut for sure, but I believe it is original.

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Posted By: mark

does look much different. Can you get a return?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...not trimmed.

If you are trying to determine whether a tobacco card was trimmed by measuring it against other tobacco cards, you are going about your investigation the wrong way. Put the ruler down and look at the edges and sides in comparison to other T205 cards you have.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Ok, it was trimmed about 90+ years ago, worn down through the years, and now it has the appearance of that "factory mis-cut" look! Stir the pot....

Tough call on that one. I'm surprised that it was graded. In most cases I've seen the grading services reject cards that are a bit shorter than normal. What do you think a grader, that knows what they're doing, will do if you have an E90-1 that is the size of a T206? I suppose if the card looks NrMt they will say it's trimmed, if it's worn down they'll just call it short and not grade it.

Here's the question - if that card had 4 razor sharp corners and was the same height, do you actually think that GAI, SGC or PSA would grade it with a numerical grade? Especially when it's a full 1/8th of an inch shorter than most cards of the same issue.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I do find it odd that it was scanned with black paper in the background. I know people do that with PSA cards, as it gives it a better look, but GAI's background is already black. Odd.

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Posted By: Noel

Im not sure if the card is trimmed or not but i think the practice of putting the black paper behind the card is pretty deceitful. Tough call as the card is graded but he should have been upfront about the paper behind the card filling in the gap. Any chance for a refund?

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Posted By: Jason Carota

I realize it is not a 205, but look at my 206 Livingstone, slabbed as authentic by SGC. It appears to have the same wear and gap at the top of the holder:



I also scan my SGC cards with a piece of black paper behind them. I find it helps to show corners a bit more.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I scan all my cards with a black background. What this does is highlight the corners so you see the true wear. Without it, the corner wear gets lost in the white.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Steve f

Matt,
Don't have any miscut T205's but have others. As Barry eluded too, Why trim a well worn card. Generally, I think it's the cut opposite the short side that the doctor excises. This bottom looks normal.

Incidentally, I use black for contrast too.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Jason,

Two things:

1) The card you are displaying was given an AUTH designation which might indicate that SGC recognized the card as being trimmed.

2) Your scan has the same type of black background that seems to mask/hide the large gap between the card insert/holder and the card border. This is the practice which is in question. This is what Matt (the original poster) is talking about.

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Posted By: Rhys

I do not know the seller, but I think Jay is right about the black behind the scan. If you have a flat panel scanner you are going to have a hard time shutting it to scan a thick graded card and have the white lid show up well. As a result most people just leave the scanner lid up for graded cards. My guess would be that it is the black background from not having the scanner lid down rather than an attempt to deceive.

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Posted By: Joann

I have a piece of black construction paper attached to the lid of my scanner so all scans are framed in black. It's not meant to deceive - but most card edges show better than they do against a white background.

Joann

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Rhys,

I think you've hit it... scanner lid up.

My scanner isn't so big but I can still scan 4 normal graded cards with the lid down without any problem.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I'd be mad too, Matt.


Sincere question... If that card had been laying on a scanner bed all by itself, ungraded, would you have been satisfied with its condition? (Not asking if you'd have bought it.) If the answer is yes, then it is a situation of too much dependence on the slabbing of a card.

If it had been raw, and if you'd have bought it, you would not be as upset. You'd have seen how it's short.

Have you asked him to take the card back with you paying postage both ways?

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Posted By: Matt E.

I agree with using a black piece of paper to highlight a corner or edge etc... but in this case in my opinion it was used to fill in the gap not highlight the edges.
It should have been graded Authentic or rejected. I don't want the card.

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Posted By: Jason Carota

1. I understand. But the keyword in your statement is 'might.' The card may also be severely mis-cut, heavily worn, or both. Based on the wear presented on both cards, I believe that neither of them were trimmed.

2. As I mentioned earlier, I also scan SGC cards with a piece of black paper behind them to improve the display of corners. I started this practice when I noticed the corners appeared better than they were in reality (I only collect 3's, 2's, and 1's ). IMO, I don't believe the seller can be blamed for doing this.

EDITED TO ADD:

I found the auction scan of my Livingstone.



I find the seller to be HIGHLY reputable, and I doubt they used the black paper to hide the gap. I'm not saying the seller of Matt's card didn't do it to deceive a buyer, just highly unlikely (imo.)

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Posted By: Dylan

I was under the impression that regardless of whether a card is suspected to be trimmed or not if its short, its short, and should only grade "auth."

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Posted By: Jeremy

If someone trimmed this card to deceive, we're in big trouble. Looks like a miscut to me. For the record, I always scan w/black background to better show the corners. However, I can see how it might cause a problem with a card that doesn't have a white border.

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Posted By: Brett

Even with the black paper behind the card, the top still looks thin...

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Posted By: Bob

Matt- If it makes you feel better I'll throw in my 2 cents worth on the side of "not trimmed." The reason I think it is not trimmed is because of the wear on the top edge and more importantly the fact that GAI is very tough on cards with trimmed top borders. I have bought several that I thought were fine and they were bounced for trimming of the top border. GAI may be a little generous when it comes to back paper loss but they are pretty tough when it comes to trimming. I think it is ok. I have a complete set of T205s so I have seen a lot of these cards in the past when putting it together. I know GAI doesn't get the support of SGC or even PSA but, again, I think the one area they are very tough on is alteration, whether it be trimming or color addition so I wouldn't feel too bad about this card.
Bob

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Posted By: Matt E.

Thanks Tbob.

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Posted By: Russ Bright

Matt, I've bought from this seller before with no problems, I don't think his intent was to decieve. The PSA cards he lists are shown with a black background as well. If you're that unhappy with the card, lmk, I'll work out a trade for ya, I need that card for my set anyways...

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Posted By: Matt E.

I have contacted the seller and he has offered a full refund.

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Posted By: leon

Let me throw a little different stance out here. I think it potentially could have an issue. Here's why...

1. It's short compared to most, if not all, in a several example test group. This in and of itself might not be too compelling however.....
2. If a card had this much natural corner wear wouldn't the card image would be a little more messed up, with creases, wrinkles or something? I know about size differences but I believe that most cards with this much "natural" corner wear, and rounding, would be more beat up. Obviously this is a very good seller and this stuff happens to all of us so no harm there. This is only my opinion and it looks like I am the only one with it....oh well......won't be the first or last time.
3. I think a lot of these type cards (small borders) were trimmed long ago and then rubbed to look older much more recently as values have climbed...again, no idea on this particular card but these are a few thoughts to chew on....

regards