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#51
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Chris
One other thing Andrew, has anyone ever batted 400 and had 120 walks? That can't be a very long list. No disrespect Andrew but if you are going to make arguments for the types of hitters that would be better than someone else shouldn't that hitter exist. Yes I would love to have a guy on my time with a .700 OB % but who are those guys? I do however see where many would say Sisler is not one of tyhe greatest hitters of all time. I mean when I was making my list I was amazed at who I left off. I am curious as to what your list looks like Andrew. Who are your top ten? BTW, Ty cobb would have hated you! |
#52
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Andrew Parks
The examples I have used are merely attempting to illustrate certain points for which I seem to be failing miserably... |
#53
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Anson
How do you measure power from pre 1920's guys? It seems the information we have to work off of is purely anecdotal. On the other side, again removing steroids, how can we measure power from post 1980's players to reflect some sort of equality with the players of the 20's-40's? |
#54
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Shannon
I dont think the pitchers are any better today then they were back in the 20s-40s. The pitching today is diluted, much like a lot of the players in general. Only a couple pitchers stand out in my mind from todays era who I consider great ones. Clemens and Maddux. I also say put Randy Johnson on that list. He didnt have a great year, but for the past 10 years or so hes been awesome.Clemens could pitch in any era, he is without a doubt the best pitcher I have seen play. |
#55
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: jay behrens
Andrew, I agree that Sisler isn't a top 10 hitter, but his OBA is right in line with all the other .400 hitters of the 20c. Almost everyone is between .460-.500. Terry is the worst at .452 and Williams the best .553. Hornsby was the only other player to have an OBA over .500 when they hit .400. |
#56
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Anonymous
ERA was significantly lower in the deadball era due to lack of homeruns. All earned runs had to be manufactured. While Mathewson, Johnson, and Young were all dominant during their time, they didn't have to contend with a guy walking and the following hitter mashing it out of the park = 2 earned runs in the blink of an eye. |
#57
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Chris
Andrew, I agree that OB + slugging tells you a lot about the productivity of a hitter. If you actually compare Wagner's numbers to Sisler's with your criteria, they are very similiar. Very similiar OB and SLG. Neither drew a ton of walks. Honus averaged 15 more a season than Sisler. Similiar avg of RBI's per season. Not a big difference in the two stats wise. To sum it all up Andrew I can see where you are coming from with everything except for calling Sisler a free swinger. I just don't see how a guy that struck out so few times is labled a free swinger. Also, I don't think Sisler's manager was telling him to go up to the plate and take a walk. Do you? He probably told him to go up there and do what he does best. Get a hit. What are some of the things you think favored the hitters of this era? Jay mentioned the new ball. I believe the sac fly rule was changed sometime in the 20's also. What are some other things you think favored the hitters of this era? |
#58
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: jay behrens
Anson, the reason for the lower ERA is not lack of power numbers. The reason for the lower ERA is high error rate. Lack of HRs is a small contributor, but ERA were kept down because of the huge number of errors committed. |
#59
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Steve
ERA was significantly lower in the deadball era due to lack of homeruns. All earned runs had to be manufactured. |
#60
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Anonymous
Chris, |
#61
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Chris
Well Andrew, If you can't compare those two eras you can't compare those two eras with today. Or those eras with the 50's. Or those with the 40's. Come on Andrew. All eras have some differences. Why is it acceptable for players in Honus' era to not walk but not acceptable in the 20's? I would think it would have been more important in the deadball era to draw a walk. You have convinced me of one thing though, since players tended to strike out more in the 20's, I stand corrected that Sisler must have been a free swinger for striking out a whopping 327 times during his career. Think about it Andrew, 327 career strikeouts. That is NOT a free swinger. You don't strikeout that few times by swinging at bad pitches. I guess you don't want to concede on that though so I will concede and say George Sisler was one of the great free swingers the game has known. Right up there with Dave Kingman. As far as triples and doubles equalling speed in the pre 20's, I don't know if I totally agree with that as the fields were so much larger then. I think it was more speed when you got douples and triples. That part of the game was different as well. A double or triple then is not what a double or triple now is in all cases. By the way since you can't compare one era to another let's just compare Sisler to his own error before his eye problem. 1917 2nd in league BA. 1918 3rd. 1919 3rd. 1920 1st. 1921 4th. 1922 1st. Lastly since you are such a big OPS guy as judging a players hitting ability. 1917-1919 4th. 1920 2nd. 1921 6th. and 1922 3rd. Do those stats make him a free swinger? George Sisler may not be one of the ten greatest hitters of all time but for you to call him a free swinger is just silly. There are no stats you can throw out to back that claim up. He didn't strike out much. He was among the league leaders in OPS, BA, hits, total bases. You don't have to call Sisler one of the 10 greatest hitters but please stop calling him a free swinger. It doesn't make sense. |
#62
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Anonymous
Chris, |
#63
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)
Andrew's top 10 (except Speaker) all made my top 15.... I agree with his point on Sisler as well. I also gave repesetation to the current crop of hitters, regardless of whether or not hey benefitted from "unfair enhancement." Nonetheless Barry Bonds was the only one on my list that I have ever really heard accused of having an unfair advantage. Frank Thomas has never been seriously accused of steriod use to my knowledge. |
#64
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Bill Stone
1.Mantle |
#65
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Cobby33
1. T. Williams |
#66
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Chris
No big deal Andrew. We just disagree. Before you call his OPS finishes "weak" you should look at the players in the AL finishing ahead of him. Ruth, Jackson, Cobb for example in 1919. Only Ruth in 1920. Don't forget he played in the same league in his prime years as Cobb, Ruth, Speaker, Heilmann, as well as many other greats so I think he was in pretty good company even finsihing 4th in OPS. Like I said though no big deal. I think Sisler was a great hitter. The fact he continued to hit after his vision problem makes me wonder how great he could have been as his vision problem was never fully corrected. |
#67
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Anonymous
These are the All-Time Leaders in adjusted OPS. This is an interesting list. It makes me want to re-think my picks. Wagner is way down the list. |
#68
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: jay behrens
OPSplus is a good indicator, but would you really rather have McGwire ahead of Musial? I could probably think of 100 hitters I'd rather have than Mac, yet he ranks 11th, tied with Foxx. |
#69
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Anson
Only 100, Jay? |
#70
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Steve
Jay |
#71
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Daniel Bretta
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sam Thompson on any of their lists. He was the best power hitter of the 19th Century and averaged nearly an RBI/game. In 1895 He had 165 RBI in 119 games. |
#72
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)
No stat can ever be perfect but you have to recognize its definition before simply discarding it. Musial is behind Mac because he played much longer and for several years at the end his good but not great seasons brought down his OPS. Mac was injured so much in his last seasons (of which there were fewer) that his sub-par performances didn't bring down his lifetime average as much.... like any statistic OPS+ doesn't take off points for things like being a jerk, being a great teammate (or a poor teammate) or using performance enhancing drugs... |
#73
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: PoorYorik
Steve, the reason why a guy like Browning, or David Orr sits very high upon the career OPS+ list is because OPS+ is a rate stat, and those guys didn't play after their prime years...Browning retired after age 33, orr after age 30! So they didn't have any old man years to bring down their OPS+, like most Hall of Famers go through. That is also why you see Dick Allen high on that list. |
#74
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Steve
Yorik Thankyou for answering many of my questions. Interesting. |
#75
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: Anonymous
Steve, it typically is true across the board. That 2 to 3 runs per 100 k's is based on EVERYBODY's hitting, not just those two players. That is the best example to highlight the discussion though...it really polarizes it. |
#76
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: identify7
Brian H., |
#77
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Your all time Top 10 Hitters !!
Posted By: TheBig6
1.Cobb |
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