What is the most valuable vintage sportscard collection worth

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Crandell

It was briefly debated in another thread what the most valuable vintage baseball card collections were worth.
I said I thought that the most valuable sportscard collections were held by Charlie Merkel. Don Louchios and Marshall Fogel. Below I took 20 of Charlie's sets on the PSA Set Registry and ascribed what I think are reasonable values in an orderly sale. Charlie has many other graded and ungraded sets in addition to these. What follows is name of set, set rating and estimated value.

1915 Cracker Jack 8.46 $600,000
1932 U.S. Caramel 8.17 175,000
1933 Goudey 8.22 600,000
1933 Delong 7.83 75,000
1933 Goudey Sport Kings8.22 250,000
1934-6 Diamond Stars 8.34 175,000
1934 Goudey 8.22 225,000
1941 Play Ball 8.48 175,000
1948 Bowman 9.19 75,000
1948-9 Leaf 8.08 350,000
1949 Bowman 8.60 150,000
1950 Bowman 8.76 150,000
1951 Bowman 8.88 400,000
1951 Topps RB 9.01 15,000
1951 Topps BB 9.01 20,000
1952 Bowman 8.93 175,000
1952 Topps 8.80 1,000,000
1953 Bowman B&W 8.35 50,000
1953 Bowman Color 8.71 250,000
1953 Topps 8.52 250,000

The total comes to well over $5mm which I think is an extremely conservative estimate of the value of these sets. Many of these(but not all) are the best sets in existence.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Yeah...

but 90% of those are "worthless" commons!



No doubt about it, those 3 guys have some SERIOUS collections!!

[Archive]

Posted By: ctdeano

I would say the first 5 set estimates are too low, the 1933 Goudey would pull over 1 million alone with all the low pops in his set and the grades therein IMO.

There may be some collectors with nicer sets raw or graded (VERY few if any)...I just wish we could get him to include scans in his registry of his cards so we could all enjoy them. I can understand a set that is not 100% complete beacuse of competition for cards, but if complete, it would be nice.

My 33 Goudey Set

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

Those aren't vintage card collectors; they are collectors who have some vintage cards. The most valuable vintage card collections are with Olbermann or Larry Fritsch or people who alot of you have never heard of. Their collections contain truely rare cards whose value will hold in any market. The ones you mention Jim have more plastic than cards and if the mine is bigger than yours mentality diminishes so will the values of their cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Crandell

ctdeano,

You are probably right.

Jay,

What you are saying is ridiculous as anyone who knows anything about card values would tell you.

[Archive]

Posted By: James Feagin

Bah humbug! I have a MONSTER collection. I bet I could pull $15K on it

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Collecting is a subjective venture. Evaluating "collections" objectively with subjective criterion is an invalid process. Value, relative to collectibles, is also subjective. As my grandfather used to say, "its only worth what you can get for it".

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

Gotta agree with Jim. Don't let your hatred of grading lead you to such an absurd conclusion.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: brian p

Little does anyone know, but my vintage collection is worth a million billion dollars, which easily outpaces any registered number offender collector.

Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I have to politely disagree with you. The folks you mention certainly have valuable collections but I would more agree with Jay than you on this. I guess I don't really know anything about value though? Quite honestly everytime I see you say "the best in existence" I cringe. How do you know? Are you Kreskin? My guess is there "could" be collections we don't even know about that are up in the top ranking. Also, I agree with Jay in that Olbermann and Frisch probably have more rare and valuable cards than the folks you mentioned. The only problem there is they haven't spent $1000's to buy plastic tombs and put them on the almighty PSA Registry .....regards


edited for grammar

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

David--I don't hate anything (except maybe people who hate). I just think rarity trumps condition scarcity every time. Also, I don't consider 1950s cards to be vintage.

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

I dont think you can go by book value to figure out which is the most valuable collection when i have 6 1981 topps Pirates cards which were my first cards i remember getting that i wouldnt sell for 10,000x book value on them....everytime i read the price guide on them i cringe to think how far off they are on some of my cards.

Possibly the worst example is t206 Bresnahan port in gd condition which sells for around $50! That was my first vintage card,easily a 4 figure value on it

Since i wouldnt trade every single card of mine for anybody elses entire collection i would say mines the most valuable and i didnt need a price guide to figure that out

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Crandell

Leon,

Cannot believe that anyone has one set ungraded that could rival any of Charlie's. I have seen two many instances of people who thought they had nrmt-mt sets come back with an anerage of somewhere between exmt and nrmt--myself included.
Not to say they may not have some nrmt-mt cards but sets averaging betweem nrmt-mt and mt--no way.

On the issue of whethere Olberman and others actually have a collection that could be worth $7-8 million or more--perhaps but I would have to see it documented,

There is an enormous value difference between nrmt and nrmt-mt and mt vintage cards that some may be underappreciating.

Lastly for some vintage sets Charlie has I have no idea of value. He has the best Tom Barker set in existence for example but I just don't know what that is worth. And for those who think vintage is only before 1913 I was using the more commonly accepted definition of vintage.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Alan

Great topic !!! I have a feeling this topic will break all records for the number of posts. Let's keep it going !!!

Does anyone know if any of these collectors (Charlie Merkel, Don Louchios and Marshall Fogel) ever looked or posted on this message board ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

money, money, money.

slab. slab. slab.

[Archive]

Posted By: brian p

Sounds like someone has fallen head over heels in love with PSA's clever marketing ploy...'best set in existence'? What a load of hooey.

Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I know Marshall a little bit, spent several hours speaking with him over cigars and drinks at the last National, and he asked for the address to this board. He gave me his email addy to send a link to this board but my email bounced back. Not sure why. If anyone has his email if they could shoot it to me privately I would appreciate it. He seemed very interested in checking the board out. He and I have corresponded for a few years so there should be no worry about giving me his info. As for this topic I think it's a great one. My little collection is about # 20,043 I think, on the value list. BTW, none of my statements should be taken personally. I think done professionally "card" arguing is kind of fun.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I guess the '14 Cracker Jack set that SGC graded very recently never existed either, correct? And I guess there just can't be any others like that? No way.....If you would preface everything you state by the word "known" then I would more likely agree with you, somewhat......take care.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Leon:

I have Marshall's e-mail as he and I have spoken previously.

I'll send it to you privately.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Crandell

Alan,

I spoke to Don Louchios last night and have mentioned Network 54 to him previously. I think that he and other major collectors may be unwillingly to participate in boards such as this as they will open themselves up to class warfare attacks. But they are all great guys and all passionate about the hobby.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

Walter Brooke: I just wanna say one word to you. Just one word.
Dustin Hoffman: Yes sir.
Walter Brooke: Are you listening?
Dustin Hoffman: Yes, I am.
Walter Brooke: Plastics

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

e-mail sent Leon.

..did you get the famous Columbo impersonation with those cigars ?


seriously though, if all cards reverted to 1970 values (ie, worthless)...would anybody here want to trade their own collections for the aforementioned topps and bowman accumulations ?(no matter how nicely they have been manicured)



..although I must say..Mr. Luchious(sp?) has been grabbing up off some interesting pre-war cards on e-bay lately

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Jim:

PLEASE convince those guys to come in here and communicate with us. The MORE knowledge we have here, the better!!!

Tell them that nobody here will "bite" them... although I'm sure their skin is pretty tough anyway!

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Crandell

Leon,

Thanks. Your comments are taken in good spirit.

As you know but perhaps others don't there are a lot of pre-war graded card collectors who are passionate about the hobby. I have gotten several e-mails from these collectors recently who have noted my recent comments but are hesitant to express there thoughts here because of comments that others have made concerning graded cards on the board. I have encouraged them to do so and said debate is healthy, the board is policed(maybe not the right word) and I feel anyway there is an underrepresentation of graded card collectors on this board.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Crandell

Murcerfan,

And he also won a large number of the high-end prewar lots in the Mastro and Goodwin auctions.

Any 62FB to sell me?

Dav

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I wish the Federal Govt. would make everyone DECLARE what baseball cards they have and what condition they are in.

Then we could have an "efficient" hobby that KNOWS what is out there and what is not.

Maybe the govt. could even take over the grading process?

Instead of Federal Mints... they could just slab cards all day and make money out of cardboard!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

Data control and IBM
Science is mankind's brother
But all I see is draining me
On my plastic fantastic lover

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

I thought "valuable" equated to the "value" if liquidated. Geez . . . perhaps I was wrong in adhering to such a narrow definition.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: WP

I am not saying that the run of Charlies sets that you posted is not impressive, it is. But look how silly the value of the 51 bowman set is. PSA marketing has distorted values to the point of absurdity, One million dollars?
To compare this collection to one like Olbermans or Frisch's is absurd. One guy has every card ever made and the other guy has a bunch of fairly "easy" to get cards in psa plastic. The vaslues of the truley rare items have climed in value massively over the last several years. Look at the Plows Candy cards in Mastro a NM Wagner sold for 35000 and the number it sold for had very little to do with the slab.
I know you turn your head the other way when this topic comes up Jim but how many of those psa cards are altered or harshly overgraded?

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

WP: "But look how silly the value of the 51 bowman set is. PSA marketing has distorted values to the point of absurdity, One million dollars?"

JC: "1951 Bowman 8.88 400,000"

WP - typo? or am I missing something. Maybe you meant 52 Topps set.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Slab n. 1. A broad, flat, thick piece, as of stone or cheese.

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

Is there any documentation of any kind on the great non-graded collections that you guys have mentioned - from guys like Olberman and Frisch?

I don't mean a list of their cards, but maybe an article about their collections and stuff like that. That would be interesting to look at. Honestly, the only specific thing I have read about Olberman's collection was his mad dash to completing the 2000 Fleer Greats of the Game autograph set when it first came out. Fromt that alone, it just seemed like a guy with a lot of money trying to get the hot new items. (no, no, I'm not trying to denigrate him as a collector, just saying that's all I've seen of exactly what he collected). So, looking forward to links, articles, of their great collections.

[Archive]

Posted By: Craig Lipman

Interesting topic and sure to generate a lot of heated discussion.
I'm not sure why it matters, however.

All the mentioned people (Fogel, Merkel, Louchious)certainly have impressive collections and in no way am I trying to diminish them. I tend to agree with Leon and Jay however. Their collections consist of mainly "mainstream" cards that one could easily replicate if given the same economic advantages that they most certainly enjoy. Keith O's collection as well as several others who are never mentioned contains rarities whose value is difficult to establish. These collections CANNOT be duplicated and they own several cards so scarce that very few people will ever have the chance to see much less own (even if they could afford it) Try putting together a set of e107s or w600's or G&Bs etc.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

Cmoking,

I remember an article that involved Olberman buying a t206 from Mr. Mint that was suppose to be very rare and it turned out that it was altered to make it rare. I'll see if I can locate the article.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bottom line: the sets are worth whatever the market is willing to pay in real money. So, if a 2005 refractor shiny Nolan Ryan card is worth $5000 on the open market then, yes, it is worth more than a T206 Jiggs Donohue in PSA 8 condition. Sorry, but it's true. As for the class warfare concern, can you blame these guys? Apparently some people on the board assume that anyone with cash should be looked at skeptically because they may just be fool investors and not collectors who love the hobby. Here's my question: if all the guys with cash are so dumb, how did they make their money?

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

WP,

Like David said and I said early on we are talking about value as liquidated and I estimated 51 Bowman at $400,000 not $1,000,000.

To say that all of the cards collected by Charlie are easy in psa plastic is ludicrous.
How many might he have that are altered or overgraded --don't know--some--but once they are slabbed in a certain grade they have an increased value and if they are altered I think at least certain grading companies are taking them out and reimbursing collectors. I will stand by my conservative values to account for this.
Again, if you think that Frisch or Keith's collection worth this please document....like I have.

Eventually virtually all cards of significant value will be slabbed and most of these will be on a grading company's registry.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: identify7

The most valuable vintage sportscard collection is the one put together piece by piece. Through saving, comprimizing, searching, figuring, waiting and everything else which we all do.

These are typically collections which are parted with only with much reluctance, if ever.

What is the price?

Could mine be bought?

Yes.

Would anyone pay the price? No!

Everything else is an investment. imo.

[Archive]

Posted By: ockday

Jefferson Airplane ..many moons ago

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Very interesting topic. If I had to choose between Larry Fritsch's collection and one of the top slabbed collections from relatively common sets, the choice would be easy. I'd take Fritsch's every time, and I suspect that almost everyone on this board would.

Which collection would actually sell for more is another issue. I tend to agree with Jay and the others who said that Fritsch's would sell for more. I assume he has squirrelled away all kinds of true rarities that would sell for a fortune in any condition. (Doesn't he still have a bunch of T206 Doyle variations?) But it is hard to overestimate the nuttiness of the folks who will pay $100K for a 33 Goudey Ruth or a 52 Topps Mantle. So I wouldn't bet much on the outcome of this contest.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Macrae

Charlie, I seem to remember something about this old rare tobacco card that Olbermann purchased. If memory serves me it was in graded holder. Don't recall the name of the company or the director in charge at the time. Maybe another lurker can help

[Archive]

Posted By: Howie

Please don't insult the collections of the three guys that JC mentioned, or guys like Olberman and Fritsch. They don't care what their collections are worth and would probably find a discussion on value just as pointless and distasteful as you do. They're true collectors who just collect different things they like. Only one person is concerned with who the top guys are and how he rates among them and that's JC with his grandstanding to be recognized posts. Just let him be #1 or #4 or what ever he wants to be and be done with it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

Jim--I can say with some certainty that what I consider the best vintage card collections in the country will not be slabbed within their owners' lifetimes. My sense is that these unslabbed cards will be around alot longer than PSA.

[Archive]

Posted By: Charlie O'Neal

cmoking,

Here are is a Olberman link. Sorry really can't find much about what he actually collects.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim Newcomb

These two comments get my goat:

1.
"Again, if you think that Frisch or Keith's collection worth this please document....like I have."

It would be impossible to estimate the value of a collection like Fritsch's because:
A. nobody really knows how much he has
B. nobody knows how much some of his cards would bring because they're so rare they haven't been offered in years and years

(Whatever our complaints about Fritsch's grading standards, he is a collector in the truest sense--)

Furthermore, your demand for some "document" to match your set registry estimates indicates that you really seem to view the whole process of collecting as a monetary competition. You were the very person the grading companies dreamed of when they came up with the "set registry" idea.

Ultimately who cares whose collection is worth the most $? I really don't.
________________________________________

2.
"Eventually virtually all cards of significant value will be slabbed and most of these will be on a grading company's registry."

And you have the nerve to accuse others on this board of "class warfare"?

Your starting money-wallowing threads like this one, and making comments like the sentence above, are the main instances of class warfare I've seen on this board -- trying to make others feel a little smaller because their beloved collections aren't worth as much as yours or somebody's I've never heard of, and frankly don't give a crap about.

Yours in collecting,
Tim


Leon, maybe you should save me from myself and yank this-- you decide--

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

You know the whole story about Olbermann's Doyle in an OLD "SGC" holder. I think it was the demise of the main person in the old company too. BTW, that person that graded that card still swears it was good. At least that's what he told me about 3 National's ago when I was speaking with him. I will never forget when Keith O. bought my Just So off of ebay and we emailed back and forth. One of my emails to him was the fact he could rest assured it was a good card as it was in an SGC holder. At the time I didn't know about the debacle. Telling him that was a mistake, to say the least.

edited for spelling

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

"Grandstanding to be recognized posts"

Ha--this is exactly why other graded card collectors do not participate on Network 54. Just see by the number of posts if this is a topic to vintage card collectors.

I rest my case.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Are you the newly appointed spokesperson for Charlie Merkel, Don Louchios and Marshall Fogel? Are you a member of their PR team? If not what is your fascination with what the possible monetary value of their respective collections is? Are you planning on purchasing these collections? I would also add that these are grown adults let them voice their opinions on their own or have they hired you to do that for them?

I don’t think anyone here doubts in any way the impressive nature of the above collections, or any collection for that matter. So why do you keep brining it up?

I go to art museums to be in awe of wonderful works of art by great masters past, not to spank my monkey to the potential sales value of those said works. If all people looked at things like you seem to Jim, art museums would hang the sales receipt not the art itself.

Do some wealthy collectors get type cast as investors over real collectors sure, and some people I’m sure rightfully fit the investor mold.

Jim you and many others have come to the defense of the “wealthy” collector saying it’s unfair to belittle these particular collectors motives and passions. Yet in the very next breath you and others belittle anyone who hasn’t jumped on your bandwagon of grading and pop-reports by saying you need proof that these collections exist and are in fact real. That is just as offensive and narrow minded as to say anyone with money who collects does not love the hobby, would you not agree?

Just because you and others feel the need to prove yourselves and the might of you’re collections, does not mean that we have to follow suit and prove to you our collections worth, in fact we don’t owe you anything.

I may be wrong about you Jim, but from the last few posts I’ve read you seem like a guy who is more interested in the price tag of a card rather than the card itself, which is a shame.

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie Vognar

complete, 5s and 6s.) My intial reaction , in looking at how many there were graded, and how many graded higher, was "Holy cow, what a lot of 33 Goudeys there are!" I cannot see a great value in something new and sharp-cornered (and I'm not talking about the Goudeys now--I mean the post war sets) compared to something old, rare and not so sharp cornered. Jay and Leon have the right of it...

None of which makes the '53 Boweman set any uglier! It's one of the most beautiful sets of the 20th cventury...

[Archive]

Posted By: Wesley

Jim,

Can you answer Tim's question? Why did you start this thread in the first place?

This forum is for prewar card collectors and your post has nothing to do with prewar cards. In fact, aside from your post about your Sports Kings set, you don't seem to enjoy talking about prewar cards. If all you want to do is talk about PSA slabs, there is a different forum devoted to PSA slabs.

Wesley

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

John, Tim and like minded people,

I was afraid I would encounter hostility from certain people on this board if I posted this and what do you know--the hostility emerges.

I have a suggestion--ignore my posts if you want to and don't like them--you don't need to go into a personal attack.

I love the hobby and collect for the joy of it. But anyone who has a substantial collection should have a sense for the value of it.

I think this is an interesting topic--I am sure many others do too. They have already said so.

Believe what you want to believe--I don't care--but just stay away from the attacks please.

Jim