Joe Jackson Barnstorming Photo

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Again....the first step here is to search the newspaper accounts....and that may involved looking at the entire 1923 run. Joe was known to slip off to the North when the paycheck was right and it may have only been for one game or a game here and there....so this may involved someone reading every day for the entire year of 1923....not an easy thing to do....but something that I feel has to be done to rule this out. I can help out here by saying that Joe was in Americus, GA from July 20, 1923 to August 28, 1923. Then there is a break in his known whereabouts from August 29 - September 7th. On September 7th and 8th we know he is in Waycross, GA for two games against Charleston, SC...with the newspaper reporting on September 9th that Joe has returned to Americus where he will operate a pool hall for the winter (the Pool Hall deal did not happen.....but he did return to Americus for a short period...then the report was he was heading back to Savannah for the winter.) He did play for Bastrop, LA for a period of time before coming to Americus on July 20th...but I do not have those exact dates handy.
One thing that was mentioned by the guy selling the photo is Jackson played under assumed names.....which to an extent is true. From my research, Joe tried playing under assumed names in 1922.....but that didn't last long......folks usually figured him out once he unleashed that black bat of his and his long throws to the plate from deep center or left. By 1923....and from all the known places he played in 1923....he is known in newspaper accounts of those towns....as the great Shoeless Joe Jackson of former major league fame.....no more assumed names. If he did play in Zanesville under an assumed name....it probably would have been under the names: Jefferson Walker, Joe Walker (rare), Joe Josephs (used a lot in 1922)....or the rumored Gus Johnson (Gus Johnson was an actual ballplayer of the period...and someone Joe had played with.....and I haven't found any proof that Joe actually used this....other than rumors in books that he used Gus Johnson while in Bastrop, LA in '23).
Sooooooooo......the sad reality is....even if we do this great task of searching the entire year of 1923...we may not come up with anything.....but if someone does do the research....I would like to know the names of the players on the team....as I have other names that Joe could have used in 1922.......so that may shed some light on the situation as well.

Looking forward to hearing from anyone with proof on this very interesting photo.............

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Forrest

I had never done extensive microfilm research until this summer when my son and I hit about ten different libraries in Iowa, several local museums, and interviewed many old-timers in their nineties. We were looking for things that happened in the 1910's, but still were able to find people who remembered their parents and long-deceased friends talking about these events. We were also in a local museum and noticed a photo of a baseball team on the wall - closer inspection showed Babe Ruth and Bob Meusel who were barnstorming across the midwest in the '20s and played against/with the local team - we started asking around and several old-timers remembered hearing about the event. From there we were able to find more in the newspapers and local college archives. These are things you will not find out from where you are sitting now.

I can tell you from recent experience that it will not take you that long to go through a year or two of microfilm - you can count on a solid weekend in the library, about six hours each day, including time to print interesting pages. The toughest part is loading the film on the machine.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I noticed on the black betsy website a picture of Joe playing in Richfield, Ohio in 1923. Richfield is not all that far from Zanesville , even for that time. So, why not ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

That guy's ears are too large -- that can't be Joe

[Archive]

Posted By: BlackSoxFan

Scott -
my comment was not made to be insidious. But i do feel that many people on here, once again, myself included, are uneducated as to the nature of this question. In otherwords, just because someone can look at a picture and voice and opinion does not mean it is a well arrived at conclusion. I have known of Mike for a long time now, although i've never conversed with him, or met him, i do believe him to be an exception to the aforementioned statements. Also, if anyone in here was a photography expert (of which Adam seems to be at least a novice) and thus better at it than most of us, they could talk numbers - in other words - the nose is .35 inches above the ears in one but .37 in the other or something to that effect - maybe someone good with photoshop could do the same, although photoshop is the one thing i can't do on a computer. Perhaps a math expert could arrive at the same information - but i haven't been in to math since i changed my major halfway through frosh year at college. I think this is a wonderful question, and i love hearing opinions, but many of them are unsubstantiated beyond a person's own inclinations and ideas - once again, myself at the head of this group. Regardless of whether they share Mike's conlcusions, people on here are just jumping on the band wagon. I myself thought it was probably joe but possibly not. Now i think it's probably not, but could be. Also, your analysis of my photography comment was right, except for the fact that you analyzed it the other way around. You didn't think of the contrary. I was not comparing the small photo to the large photo, rather, the larger to the smaller - If that makes sense - i hope it does. Lastly, i will say that something no one on here has seemed to mention is the following.... it is entirely possible that a newspaper clipping substantiating Joe's location at the time of the photo, could still leave open the possibility that it is or is not him. Don't get me wrong, this may be impractical, but hypothetically, just because joe was in Z-ville at the time of this photo doesn't mean it is him in it. It will depend on what the newspaper says specifically.

BlackSoxFan

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Upon further thought on this......... Based on all the other towns Joe Jackson played in (post-banishment)....when he arrived it was a big day for the local newspapers.....in other words that made a very BIG deal of it. I would assume the same to be true for Zanesville (again...if he used his real name...and I have reason to believe at this time (1923) he was using his real name when playing ball for these teams. Joe had already tested "the waters"...those waters being whether MLB had jurisdiction over him playing in those leagues....and found out they DID NOT....so he started using his real name at that point). But for argument sake....lets say he DOES use his real name in Zanesville......then even if it's only for one game......trust me when I say this....the newspapers would have made a big deal out of it. Quite frankly.....this very picture possibly appeared in the paper at that time (that would be the ideal best situation....that this photo appears in the Zanesville paper and that it lists Jackson there....that would be GREAT!!!). I can promise you....if Jackson was there in 1923 and used his real name....and they had a paper in Zanesville at the time.......trust me...it WILL be in there and they would have made a big deal over it. My dad saw Joe in Waycross, GA in 1924 and 1925 and he said it was a very big deal in Waycross....the papers made a fuss over it (which I have the newspaper copy to prove that statement), he said that the town shut down at 3:30 so every person in town could attend the first game Joe played there. He said the Waycross team didn't have a uniform for Joe to wear...so he wore his 1917 White Sox uniform (upon further research from me....not only was it just any 1917 White Sox uniform....it was the 1917 special World Series uniform). My dad remembered it had a flag on the sleeve and it was brightly colored. Anyway....I say this as a way to show it was a very big deal when Jackson showed up to play ball in these towns....so it shouldn't be hard to spot on microfilm (again....if he played under his real name....the work comes in if he didn't play under his real name).

If I don't hear something from someone on this group soon concerning that research, I will inquire about an inter-library loan of that microfilm to my local library....that's how much I want to KNOW one way or the other whether this guy is Jackson or not.

Thanks for allowing me to spew forth on this great forum...and when you guys have had enough of me.....tell me to SHUT UP!!!....and I'll be gone!!! To BlackSoxFan.....I read your post and if you ever want to converse with me directly....feel free to, I'm usually available....send an email to shoeless@blackbetsy and my staff will get it to me....that goes for anyone wanting to discuss Jackson related issues....be glad to talk to anyone, anytime.

Thanks,

Mike Nola
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Forrest

I didn't think you were being insiduous, but I also don't think pulling ot a micrometer is necessary in this instance. JMO

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Counts

Mike,

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I contacted the Zanesville Press Recorder. You might consider contacting them. The newspaper dates back to the 19th century, and when I contacted an editor there, he was quite familiar with the Mark team. In fact, as we talked, he pulled out and described a Mark team photo from about 1925 with names on it, Whitey Weitelmann being the only name I was familiar with. The newspaper is easy to track down ... I just looked it up on Google.

Regarding your father's experience in Waycross, Georgia, I suspect that in the South, there was much greater support for Joe. In 1923, many Southerners were still deeply suspicious of Northerners (and I'm not just talking about Ty Cobb!). It is quite likely that Joe was treated like royalty in many places in the South, but I doubt he recieved the same reception in the North. Just my two cents ...

[Archive]

Posted By: Daniel Bretta

My guess is that Jackson was just as admired in the North as he was the South at the time, and especially in Ohio where he played for the Indians. It may not have been the reverence that he and Ty Cobb recieved from Southerners, but I doubt he would have felt the need to hide his name when playing for the Mark team. It also seems likely that the Mark team which had a stadium big enough for over 4,000 fans would have wanted him to use his real name.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

As I said in an earlier post.......Jackson had tested the "waters" where MLB's jurisdiction was concerned.....once he determined MLB couldn't really touch him in those outlaw type leagues.....he used his real name. The only reason Joe tried to play under assumed names in 1922 is that he loved the game and feared he wouldn't be hired to play in those leagues if he used his real name (all Joe Jackson wanted to do was play ball......play anywhere someone was willing to pay for his services). From my research, though even when he used an assumed name......it sometimes only lasted for a few innings before someone figured out that this Jefferson Walker guy or this Joe Josephs guy was indeed the great Shoeless Joe Jackson....sometimes it went the entire game before someone was tipped off after the fact. Most of the time, the teams that hired Joe had to forfeit those games to the other team or the other team requested that be done (sometimes it happened....sometimes the game stood as played). I believe by 1923 he was playing under his real name (I know that to be a fact for his time in Americus, GA and Waycross, GA in 1923). In 1922, Joe was in the New York City area playing ball there....but all the newspapers reported seeing him out and about NYC (they used his real name). Joe was doing a vaudeville act at night and playing ball during the day. The papers reported about the vaudeville act using his real name.....yet Joe could slip out of the city during the day to play ball in New Jersey under an assumed name...and in most cases no one was the wiser (at least for a while).

I think that if we find this man to be Joe Jackson.....that he will be listed in the papers as JOE JACKSON....and not some assumed name.

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: sagard

So what happens to the value of the photo if someone does find Newspaper records of Jackson playing in Zainesville?

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Well....the memorabilia world is a whacky world. In my opinion....the photo would probably bring what was paid for it if auctioned in the right manner. It all depends on if a bidding war breaks out on it or not. I have several original team photos of Joe during his outlaw days.....and I never paid more than $100.00 for any of them.....not sure what would make this one so special compared to say a 1924 or 1925 team photo of Joe....or the 2 original 1923 Americus team photos (do not own those...both know where they are). I believe even if it turns out to be Jackson, the buyer will quite possibly not get their money back out of it.....$2,800.00 is a lot of money to pay for a photo...considering the provenance (or in this case...lack thereof). Lets just put it this way....I would not be sleeping well at night had a paid that kind of coin for a photo...and then have a few folks tell me it may not be Joe Jackson. I'd be on the next flight to Zanesville and I would search until I found something....one way or the other.

Several years ago....a company bought what was said to have been a game used Joe Jackson bat.....they then took that bat and sawed it up into little pieces and sold those pieces with a photo of Joe for a lot of money. They sent one to me and it had a picture on the back of what the bat looked like. As soon as I saw it...I knew it was not a bat that had ever been used by Joe Jackson. This bat was a YMCA Joe Jackson bat.....those bats were shipped to our servicemen overseas during World War I....Joe Jackson never saw that bat...much less used it in a game situation. I was the guy that broke that to SCD, who ran a story on it...I also contacted the company, who promptly recalled all the ones that had sold. They later went out and bought and had authenticated a game used Jackson bat........ They sawed that one up too (two more pieces of history gone forever)....it's absurd.....and to top that off....they sold the supposed SAWDUST from when they sawed the bat up......man...I wish I could get some suckers on that one........sawdust....give me a break. The memorabilia world has gone mad.............

My whole point on writing that book is this......even big companies make mistakes....they take the word of someone else without independent verification.....and it appears the buyer of this photo did the same. I do pray for their sake that we find out this IS Joe Jackson....my heart really does go out to them....for I fear the opposite is true.

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I just went back to my original email messages from the seller....and have come to discover.......I actually got this photo from two sources...... One of the sources sent me the photo and on the bottom of the photo is written in pen...."1929" or "1919"....looking at it....I'm leaning towards the "1919" based on how the person that wrote it wrote his "1". The second source (from the seller) looks like the "1929" or "1919" has been wiped off the bottom of the photo...either with white out....or it has been rescanned to send to me without notation of the year.

Understand...."I ain't here to start no trouble...I'm just here to do the Super Bowl shuffle". But it makes me wonder what's going on here......who wrote the "1929" or "1919".....and why was it not on the second photo sent to me????

I have both of these photos if anyone would like to see what was send to me.....send me an email to shoeless@blackbetsy.com and I will forward to you.

This means....if the year notation on the photo is a period dated notation....then we also have to look at newspaper accounts from 1919 (obviously it's not Jackson in 1919...but that quite possibly will tell us who IT IS!!). We also have to look at 1929, but if it's 1929....I can, with almost 100 percent accuracy..... tell you it's not Joe Jackson....this guy is no where near as big as Joe Jackson was in 1929...not even close......... But at this point...I want to know what this guy's name is regardless....I'm curious now..............

Again....I'm not trying to start any trouble.......just trying to come up with answers............

Something else to ponder.............

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

"I do pray for their sake that we find out this IS Joe Jackson"

If the ears don't fit, it ain't legit.

Does it even matter what a newspaper might say? Some on this thread have said the ears physically proclude the guy from being Joe Jackson.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I guess "If the ears don't fit, it ain't legit" (which I like and agree with)....is something akin to "If he hit, you must acquit"....but I digress.....

I totally agree...and have said so in the past....the ears do it for me....Joe had some big ole ears now....and this fellow doesn't measure up......but for the buyers sake....I really would like it to be him......$2,800.00 is a chunk a change for a $5.00 photo (maybe what it's worth if it ain't Jackson).

Well.....what the newspaper account would do...would prove Joe Jackson played in Zanesville....lending to that reasonable doubt thing...growing smaller...much like the ears. The bigger question NOW is.....is this photo from 1923.....with my new discovery of the year notation on the photo that was sent to me....I first must have the question of when that notation was put on the photo.....Is it a period notation...or something added recently. If it's period....then in my opinion...the buyer paid entirely too much money for the photo....cause in 1919....my records show ole Joe Jackson as a member of the Chicago White Sox....and if it's 1929.......ah....they still paid too much money for the photo....cause Joe Jackson was a pretty hefty guy in 1929. The buyer really has to pray that someone here or elsewhere finds a reference to Joe Jackson in Zanesville in 1923 and hopefully find a copy of this picture in a 1923 edition of that paper.....else the buyer pretty much has a worthless photo. Very hard to move a photo such as this without very good provenance.

Mike Nola
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Forrest

Personally, the ears were enough for me and I wouldn't have bothered doing the Zanesville research AND I would not claim it was Jackson if I were trying to sell it, or pay "Jackson" prices if bidding.

But if I DID believe it was Jackson, then I would do the research to confirm.

Doesn't anyone else think it is strange that Chris spoke with the editor of the paper, who was familiar with the team, and he hadn't even heard a rumor that Jackson had played in his town?

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Scott,

That exactly what I told the gentleman selling it when he contacted me. If he didn't want to take my word that it wasn't Joe Jackson....and I did ask him not to take my word for it....but that he should prove me wrong....go to Zanesville...or get an inter-library loan of the microfilm and do the research for yourself. I told him he couldn't possible begin to think about selling it without some sort of provenance....other than what he thought(seems I was way wrong about that). The guy was totally convinced it was Jackson and there was no amount of reason that would make him think otherwise. Like you.....I can't even imagine beginning to think about clicking on the "Bid" button....until I had hard proof that Jackson was there in whatever year this photo is from (again....I am getting that nasty sinking feeling that it wasn't even 1923....in fact....if I was the buyer....I would be in the restroom throwing up lunch).

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh Evans

Hope you are all enjoying your summer's.

Other thing that makes this not a photo of Joe Jackson besides the fact that it is not Joe Jackson...

Went too cheap. None of the major photo people bid on this because they didn’t think it was Jackson. If it was him (not just looked a bit like him) it would have gone for $10-15,000. Nice image, nice condition, nice size. The only thing comparable I can think of was a team photo pre major league and that came from the family. Sold for like $12,000 even 15 years ago. Hey and this is a panorama. Small one but still a panorama.

Josh

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Well....I guess if the 1907 or 1908 Jackson team photos went for so much money.....then I guess my 1925 Waycross Coastliners team photo with Joe in it (only one known to exist....original photo used in newspaper).....is worth at least 7 or 8 thousand......... Any takers

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Spaeth

The guy in the photo looks more like Jackson than the E90-1!

[Archive]

Posted By: BlackSoxFan

now now now...no reason to bring the e90-1 into this conversation!

[Archive]

Posted By: William Brumbach

Not a team photo, but this is from the most recent Mastronet auction.



1917 Team Photo.

Hmm, link fixed, team photo lot added. Hope this one works, not sure what happened the first time around!

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

......

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Rousseau

have been away from the board for a solid week with no internet access.

this thread is a fine example of what I love about this board!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Over the weekend I took some time to search through the Zanesville newspapers of the day via NewspaperArchive.com. They have the 1923 and 1929 papers......., but I have not found any 1919 papers yet (still looking). In 1923....the paper refers to the team as the Zanesville Greys (not the Mark Americans or Mark Greys). There is a reference in a 1929 paper to the "old Mark Greys" team....but it doesn't tell us what year they were known as the Mark Greys.....could have been 1923......but when searching the 1923 papers.....all I found is reference to the Zanesville Greys. So far, I have not found any reference to Joe Jackson or any of his known assumed names.....but I still have a lot of searching to do. I will look through 1929.....but in my mind....that is almost an impossibility...due to the size of the man in this photo not comparing to the size that Joe Jackson was in 1929. I am starting to lean towards this being a photo from 1919....and while Jackson could very well have played on a barnstorming team after the 1919 World Series.....it is highly unlikely that this photo is of such an event....and it surely would not have happened prior to the start of the 1919 season....but I will continue to search this out.

I will report back when and IF I find something of substance............

Mike
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer.
The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!