The first card PSA ever graded

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Posted By: Cy

Scott Elkins,

If I remember correctly, we had this discussion a while back and you stated that you had upcoming irrefutable proof that the Wagner card was trimmed. That was a long time ago. Do you have this irrefutable proof?

Cy

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Posted By: Chuck Ross

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4240&item=5152035184&rd=1

So, if I pick this one up for $500, can I turn it around for $125,000? I need to find that buyer so I can quit my day job

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Posted By: hankron

I never understood in the first place why anyone would want to pay $1 million for a baseball card or $125K for a Tiger Woods or $100,000 for a Mickey Mantle. If someone has the collecting budget and burning desire to drop six or seven figures on a professionally graded trading card, I'll let him worry about whether this or that edge is funky or a 10 should be a 9.

Call me silly, but I don't see how any Mint card should be worth 30 or 50 or whatever times more than the Near Mint version unless it was signed by Walter Johnson or the cast of Leave it to Beaver. So when I see a multi-millionaire paying an extra $95,000 so he could get a 10 instead of a 7 on the label above his card, it's not a scene from The English Patient for me.

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Posted By: Scott

Why is that? ...because there is no danger whatsoever that the card will ever be de-slabbed. If such a danger had ever existed, Honus wouldn't have been put behind plastic to begin with.

Okay, I guess it's possible that someone on this board could win the lottery, pay double value for the card, break it out and send it to SGC. But that's not going to happen, so we'll never know how SGC would react to receiving that package.

...but IF they elected to grade it, they would be considered "experts" if taken to court by the disappointed customer. The only reason they would have to fear any liability would be if they couldn't prove that they possessed the skills/equipment to make a grading determination for a card of this value. Hey, this ties back to what I was asking about previously, doesn't it? But we don't care about these issues - the "Big 3" are experts and asking these types of questions is a symptom of "paranoia"

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

First of all Runscott - I actually agree with you - if every future owner of the Wagner is like the present owner, then PSA will never have anything to worry about.

Cy - I am not even going back to the Wagner discussion!!!!! Truth is, I had several files on the Wagner with tons of evidence at one time. Had the "conflict" with Mastronet and they suspended me from bidding in their auctions b/c of my comments on the Wagner. When I auctioned off my T207 Redcross Blackburne through Mastronet, I kinda burned the bridge with them over the Wagner and am not even going back to that too lengthy discussion!

All I can tell you about the Wagner being trimmed is to go to T206museum and look for yourself! If you can't tell from the corner images shown on that website that the card is trimmed, you better not buy NM ungraded cards on eBay!!!!!!

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Posted By: Scott

then, by golly, it must be gospel truth.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I NEVER said anything about the Wagner was "published" on the T206museum site (although they do have a small article about the trimming). What I was referring to were the pics. of the card's corners! Please read correctly before you insert your foot into that mouth of yours and completely try and turn around my posts (which you always TRY and do, but do not succeed).

Also, if you can't tell by looking at the several photos from that website and even the catalog the card was auctioned in, that it is trimmed, then maybe people should never bid on any card you have up for auction b/c there could be a possibility you could not tell it was trimmed!?!?

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Posted By: honus3415

Is it just me.....or does it seem really foolish to trust thousands and even hundreds of thousands of dollars to plastic?

First my thought on the Wagner. I would think that for security reasons a "body double" would be submitted in it's place, afterall isn't that a common procedure by museums with art masterpieces?

NOW as for plastic cases in general. WHAT ARE WE THINKING????? These are just plastic cases with a paper label and our precious card inside. Could someone please explain to me how no one "COULD POSSIBLY " get their hands on an usable open one (used, new or reproduced) and repackage a card?

Has any of these companies even come close to instilling a trust\confidence in their product?

Well with that in mind....how well do they keep track of the little things like their inventory of plastic cases? And are they ever audited? Have any ever been missing?

In the card world, our plastic cases have turned cardboard into legal tender....yet with 1/1000th the security!!!

I'm not accusing anyone of anything....but I just can't help but think what someone somewhere with enough motivation could do. No motivation or too expensive you say??? Not since as few as 10-20 well-placed "body doubles" could possibly net someone a couple hundred thousand. And all because we whole-heartedly trust those plastic holders and the little paper label inside.

"IN PLASTIC WE TRUST" or "A FOOL AND HIS MONEY"? Can't decide my motto for 2005.

Hopes for 2005....The "priceless" Price Guide and the "gradeless" Grading Company....but those are a different thread.

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Posted By: runscott

I always read your posts and I enjoy them thoroughly.

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Posted By: runscott

...at least not with the "big 3". If you held in your hand a slab that had been cracked and glued back together, I think you would be able to tell it.

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Posted By: Chris

I couldn't agree more David. I have never understood that either. Give me a 7 over a 9 anyday and most of the time giove me a 6 over a 7. For my $ anyway.

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Posted By: dennis

i also agree an ex/mt ex or vg on a prewar card is a really nice and it lets you buy more if you are on a budget....but to some money is no object, i think if i had $$$ i'd still feel this way.

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Posted By: leon

I had a great little answer but was completely off topic

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

PSA has had their holders compromised in a big way. The body double concept happened alright it was posted about on the CU board and the SGC board extensively for a year and a half period and is still brought up for time to time.

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Posted By: PASJD

http://www.psacard.com/articles/article3741.chtml

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Posted By: Opportunitymissed---

never occurred to me I could put a lesser card in and reseal it. Too much work...

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Posted By: Scott

I realize that we discussed this previously, but my understanding was that someone had gotten hold of labels and plastic, and had basically "graded" their own cards.

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Posted By: Scott

...it also doesn't shed any light on whether or not cards seals were being broken, or someone was slabbing with previously unused materials. I still think the latter is the case, but it would be good to hear someone clear this up. It sounds like Greg has some information on this.

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Posted By: PASJD

My understanding is that they had their own plastic but not their own labels. So they would take a card, crack it out of the PSA holder, put an inferior card plus the PSA label into one of their own holders and seal it and sell it, and then resubmit the original card itself to PSA, and so on.

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Posted By: Scott

Thanks. I just didn't want people thinking that cracking slabs and re-sealing them was likely - a lot of new collectors read this board and believe everything we post.

I have cracked cards and occasionally ended up with two decent-looking slab halves - scans would look fine, I'm sure, but if you view the slab from the side it's easy to tell it's been "stressed out". It's possible that someone has done this and gotten away with it, but I would have to see examples to believe it.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Happy New Year Scott.

As Mike Wentz knows I was very involved in trying to alert collectors to what had transpired. I posted regualarly on SGC's board as well as the Yahoo board under their finance section for CLCT (PSA's ticker symbol).

You are correct that the information that PASJD posted is vague at best but then again this was PSA's official release on the subject. I am currently involved as a key witness for the plaintiffs in a large civil case that is pending against CU and Joe Orlando so I cannot comment on what more I know about the crime until after I have testified, 2 weeks from now.

I will provide you with 3 links to what I feel is an informative post that I made. Certainly there are others I made on the Yahoo forum and on SGC's that may be more editorial but you may also find informative. As a side note, I make some negative references to someone by the name of Dan Markel, who is a strong supporter of PSA. He and I got into it (I know shocking that I would argue with anyone) but we have since settled our differences and moved well beyond this.
Link 1.
Link 2.
Link 3.

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Posted By: Julie

it might not be PSA's fault, huh?

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Posted By: Scott

of course I didn't know that much of it, but the part about finding empty, unused holders at WIWAG was discussed previously. Naturally, PSA would prefer that the public think WIWAG was cracking cases;otherwise, customers start wondering "how did WIWAG get those holders?"

But these are likely things we'll never know.

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Posted By: Scott

Scott Elkins - I debated posting this, for one main reason - I really DO enjoy reading your posts as they are obviously completely un-edited and so they really give us a feel for you passion for card-collecting. And it is very rare that I get "angry" over one of your posts - normally I see a little humor in them and my responses are not intended to generate any anger on your part, and I don't think they normally have that result.

However, I don't think it's responsible to post accusations that have no evidence behind them, or to post personal email correspondence. I've learned the hard way that this type of thing comes back to bite you - based on your fiasco with the e95 forgery you sold as real, and the resulting beating you took on the old board and this one, you should also have the experience to know better. In light of that episode, telling people not to buy my cards because I don't agree that a fuzzy scan posted by t206museum indicates positive proof of trimming, is quite irresponsible of you. I waited for you to either edit your post or retract your comments, but since you didn't, I felt compelled to post a rebuttal. And, no, I won't suggest that your customers avoid you because you can't tell the difference between a forged e95 and a real one, even though the evidence is there to support it.