SGC

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Posted By: FatBoy

Anyone hear anything lately?

Seems like the board is all but dead, nothing out of the new management, I understand a very low profile presence at the national with very little customer traffic...They've been on nobody's lips lately.

Keith

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Posted By: leon

I was fortunate to spend a long time speaking with the new regime at the National. Dave Foreman (not sure about the spelling) is a nice guy and also a COLLECTOR. I think it's great to not just have bean counters run companies but people who enjoy the hobby too. He will also quickly defer to his graders on grading issues, which is very smart, imo. I did also speak with Scott Heilmann (sp?again) for a long time over many beers. They seem like they are still focused on vintage but, as in any business, are wrestling with how to increase revenues. I did frequent the PSA folks too as I had one card cross graded for a friend. I can tell you that none of the grading companies were going gangbusters. It was a little light for all of them. My choice is still SGC even though I absolutely do not agree with everything and every grade. They did bump me up one grade on an '09 Obak that is nrmt-mt but for some almost imperceptible paste on the back. They took it from a 40 to a 50 The corners on the dang card would cut you if you touched them. They also are giving serious thought to grading a 1920's Babe Ruth Headin' Home card I picked up. I am trying to make a case that it has been listed in the SCD for years and that there are several experts that will vouch for it's authenticity. The old "we've never done it before so we don't want to do it now" story is just not too hip to me. They are thinking about it and are at least very open to discussion. I showed it to Dave F. and he looked at it, gave me a puzzled look (which is expected for this card), and handed it to Scott. Scott and Bob (one of the other graders) still haven't made a decision. So, as for SGC, the future looks very bright with some new blood and energy and I am glad to still be in their corner. I don't have anything against the other companies but will do what I think is best for my collection. I did see some of Ryan's GAI graded cards that had totally slipped down in their holders and looked like a mess. Extremely awful job on holdering. Regards all.....

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Posted By: runscott

...but I haven't bought a baseball card in many months, so no need to grade anything lately. I did almost complete my t218 "track and field" card collection, courtesy of "House of Cards" - for those who are interested, they mentioned that they were getting the high-grade non-track cards from the set graded and ready for selling (Billiards, etc.). I can't remember if it was PSA or SGC.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

I'm all for a grading service (SGC) that will authenticate material, even if it is altered. My only request would be that the highest grade that an altered (trimmed, colored, restored, rebacked etc) can receive is an SGC10A. They must also put the word altered on it and provide a very clear definition (on their web site) as to what the grade represents.

I stopped by the SGC table and they have been considering doing this because it would be an avenue for generating income. I'm happy that they are considering this. They gave a possible time line of up to 6 months.

All of the grading booths were very slow. Sounds ominous for submissions of newer cards. Just my guess but I wonder if everyone has had their fill of all the new garbage and I wonder if people have finally figured out that this new "crap" (couldn't find a better word) isn't really worth the.... (ok, let me recompose myself and stop).

Hopefully what this means is better service, attention to detail and hopefully a company that will listen to what collectors are feeling about the service being provided. I'm sure there are a lot of opinions out there regarding how different material should be graded (19thC material for example). If SGC is smart they will listen to what the vintage collectors (and all collectors for that matter) have to say.

Stepping off my soap box....

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Posted By: jay behrens

Hopefully, SGC will start authenticating cards. It's the only way they will be able to increase vintage card revenues since the vintage market is finaite. New cards on the other hand are an infinite market since there are new cards being produced every day.

Jay

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Posted By: leon

I know they are considering it and it would add revenue, obviously. It also opens a can of worms too. My thought is if they just did what Jay said and make them SGC10-A, or something like that, then that would suffice. There are more issues than most any "one" of us can think of surrounding this service. regards all

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Posted By: hankron

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

It was true that there was not nearly as much action @ SCG tables as PSA. GAI also much slower. However there is a very friendly atmosphere @ SGC and it is easy to talk with Dave as well as the graders. Finished product for vintage items is clearly superior in looks even though their grading seems unecessarily harsh particularly on blank back vintage items (I am sure Leon would agree). Still I happly crossed over several Boston N172's to lower grades than PSA for the superior appearance of the holder. They did a 1910+/- school baseball team postcard that I had had for 15 years and its looks spectacular. I think that very soon both PSA and SGC will autheticate cards and identify them as trimmed, colored, restored, etc. I think Dave knows that it is an uphill strugle with PSA, but that their product is superior for vintage material. That is a small market, but I think that as long as they keep their overhead under control they can be sucessful and we all need them to be.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

I did the same, crossed over a PSA Old Judge Ned Hanlon to an SGC holder but had to accept a one grade drop. I was OK with this as I agreed with the grade and want all my Detroit material in SGC holders. I have some other non-Detroit PSA holdered cards that I know would suffer the same fate if I cross over to SGC (drop a grade).

On the flip side, I had my recent Dan Brouthers card upgraded from an SGC40 to 50. This was the card that received some attention on this forum when it hit eBay. It looks like a PSA7 / SGC80 until you notice the small indentations left on the flip side from an old autograph that had been erased.

I continue to prefer SGC over the others by a fair margin. They may be harsh on grading but fairly consistent, easy to deal with, and as already stated have a nice looking holder that does the job.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Their staff was friendly and helpful. They kept me posted on the progress of my cards.

I think PSA looked busier but may not have been as busy as they looked because they tiered their submissions. For an extra $10 a card, you could have 2 hour service allegedly (I say allegedly because it took them 3 1/2 hours to get my cards back to me). I sat at the PSA booth for about 30 minutes on Friday waiting for my cards. Most of the traffic there was people coming back to check on their 2 hour deals and people perusing the display cases full of high grade cards, not new submittals. I saw a lot of large scale SGC submittals too, so the foot traffic might be a deceptive measure of their activity.

I think in general, this show was much quicker on turn times for cards than other shows where on site grading has been happening.

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Posted By: dan mckee

My lawyer doing business with PSA, isn't that a conflict of interest? Leon, you may want to do a little research on your first post at the top of this thread, take care Dan.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I don't represent them and did not advise them--other than to advise them that if they did not get my damned 2 hour order done in under 4 hours, I'd want a refund of the $10 premium I paid

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Posted By: Brian H

was terrific -- despite the National they got the OJs I sent them back well within the contracted 4 business days and did I good job IMO on the cards (yes, I would have liked higher grades but they were fair grades I felt).

I wish that more of their cards commanded the same sorts of $$ that PSAs do....

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Posted By: Pcelli60

SGC is as good as any other established company. For what its worth...

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Posted By: Tom

A company is only as good as the people that respresent the product they have to offer. PSA is fanastic about how great there grading system is and what they have and can offer. Words do not mean anything unless it is backed up by action and results. PSA will tell you one thing and do something else. As an 3rd party grading company without question they smell. They talk out of both side of there mouth at the same time, but never say anything. PSA grading system has only hurt the sportcard industry and will continue to as long as they remain. The best thing that could happen to PSA is just close there door. I do not and will not buy any PSA card or product that has been indorsed by PSA/Collector Universe stamped with there Seal of Approval for Authentication purposes. To me that is a kiss of death for a card to be placed into one of there holders. Let a card RIP in another company holder.

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Posted By: Tom

A company is only as good as the people that respresent the product they have to offer. PSA is fanastic about how great there grading system is and what they have and can offer. Words do not mean anything unless it is backed up by action and results. PSA will tell you one thing and do something else. As an 3rd party grading company without question they smell. They talk out of both side of there mouth at the same time, but never say anything. PSA grading system has only hurt the sportcard industry and will continue to as long as they remain. The best thing that could happen to PSA is just close there door. I do not and will not buy any PSA card or product that has been indorsed by PSA/Collector Universe stamped with there Seal of Approval for Authentication purposes. To me that is a kiss of death for a card to be placed into one of there holders. Let a card RIP in another company holder.

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Posted By: Pcelli60

Seem a little angry Tom. I will admit though, I agree with you, generally speaking. In fact I am slowly getting away from a 'graded cards only' mind set. And I feel so much better for it!!!

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Posted By: Scottopotamus

I use SGC for my craptacular T206 collection and have always been well pleased with the results.

My collection is not for resale, so the SGC holder is not a drawback as far as the "PSA vs. everyone else" battle is concerned.

Scottoptamus
My T206 Web Site

http://www.freewebs.com/scottopotamus

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I dropped an SGC holder on our tile floor this a.m. Made a hell of a racket but no damage to card or holder (or floor ). It is a solid product.

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Posted By: Steve Verkman

As many of you know, my company was one of the strongest supporters of the SGC grading company for many years. We felt they were more consistent graders and I agree with the others who posted about how much better their holders look than PSA or Global.

A grading company is only as good as its graders and its integrity. I have stopped submitting cards to SGC since Derek Grady left as the top grader. While Derek was not perfect, we was 100% honest and would research something before blindly making decisions on grading and authenticity. After Derek left, I cannot say anything good, bad or indifferent about the graders at SGC as I have never met them or know a thing about them as they are almost certainly VERY new to high quality vintage cards.

Many of you made reference to David Foreman. He now apparently has an ownership stake in SGC. Foreman has been a major supporter of PSA for almost 10 years and is literally a pioneer when it comes to trimming and restoring cards. He has been buying low and mid grade cards and "improving" them for over a decade now.

Even if one supposes that Foreman was undergone a religious conversion and is now a Saint, do you guys really believe as I was told by Sean at SGC that Foreman does not buy or sell any cards? Why would he give up a potentially large income to get involved in the declining and incredibly competitive grading world.

I don't know how many of you noticed but Foreman's brother submits cards to SGC and is now running his own auction of high quality vintage cards (he had many on display at the National). If that is not a conflict of interest, what is?

Foreman apparently had a major role in the Teletrade company, with rumors around the show circuit stating that he owned the company. From what I understand it no longer exists as he allowed many cards from the PRO Grading Service and other problematic material to be funneled through Teletrade.


With all of this said, I can offer no strong endorsement of any grading company. SGC is the only one that has a known dealer as an owner and has the brother of this person grading cards. PSA is obviously flawed as is Global but they do not share this quality.

To my mind, the only reason to grade a card is to sell it for more money, That is assuming you know what you have and trust the person or people from whom you acquired the merchandise. Ebay obviously brings along a new set of problems but as knowledgable as members of this group are in ferreting out bad sellers, it seems to not be too terrible. I am speaking somewhat out of ignorance on the need for graded cards on ebay as I buy only a handful of items on ebay.

I write this not to cause any controversy but to make sure that the great and very knowledgable collectors on this board know what they are buying when they use a particular grading company.

Steve Verkman
Clean Sweep Auctions

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Posted By: Sean Skeffington

Steve,

That's quite a mouthful. The first and perhaps the only issue I agree with you on is that a grading company is only as good as its graders and their integrity. For that I feel SGC is on solid footing because I know the senior graders at SGC are world class and their honesty and integrity has never been questioned. I find it odd that you stopped submitting to SGC when Derek left the company (January 2003) and 18 months later you feel compelled to write your fable about SGC. I strongly question your motives.

Without submitting a card to SGC (post Derek) or without meeting or knowing our current graders what credentials do you have to question SGC's grading practices and integrity? In your words you said "...I cannot say anything good, bad or indifferent about the graders at SGC as I have never met them or know a thing about them..." It is clear that your decision to not grade cards with SGC had nothing to do with our ability to grade cards or the quality of our cards on the market.

Your attempt to smear SGC's good name and reputation due to a personal conflict with Dave Forman that goes back many years is disappointing and desperate. You claim that "..you write this not to cause any controversy but to make sure that the great and very knowledgable collectors on this board know what they are buying when they use a particular grading company." This is very noble of you and I believe the members of this board are intelligent enough to make their own choices. Unlike yourself, their choice will be made based on how accurately we grade cards, not rumor and innuendo.

It is unfortunate that there are a number of conflicts of interest that exist in the hobby, the least of which is that Dave Forman's brother is a card dealer. Steve Forman submits cards to all three grading services (SGC, PSA and GAI). If he was getting the preferential treatment you suggest from SGC there would be no reason for him to use the other services. Check out his eBay auctions (stevessportscards) or his showcase at a show and you will see that SGC is not his primary grading service of choice.

You can feel free to make up all of the consipracy theories you wish, but I have been at SGC from Day 1 and actually know how things operate here as opposed to your rediculous speculations. Every card submitted to SGC is graded in the same manner regardless of who submits the card and it is my job to enforce that policy. Unless you wish to call my ethics and integrity into question, I suggest you go on your way.

Regards,
Sean Skeffington
Vice President-SGC

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Posted By: David Seaborn

I, for one, am glad to see SGC standing up to this attack in an open way. As a collector of vintage cards for several years now, I have had NO problems with SGC and have found them to be extremely helpful and courteous over the phone, via email, and at show. There are several previous threads in which many others have stated the same thing.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion regarding grading companies and we'll never all agree, but people (especially newbies) should know where that opinion comes from (you may also want to search out previous threads on Steve Verkman, which are on here). I'm just encouraging everyone to get the whole story. As was stated previously, there are many conflicts of interest in the hobby....look at PSA. A quick look at their financial records shows they make more money off of selling cards than grading them. I believe that is a much bigger conflict of interest.

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Posted By: Tom

I have spoken to Sean at SGC several times on the telephone. I have the highest respect for SGC and the way they grade there cards. Without questions they have the very best holder in the card grading industry. They are extremely friendy and they have always answered any question(s) that I ever had. There is no comparsion between then and was is the name of that company SPA, APS, no PSA such a bitter word to use. There is just not enought words to describe those people. I read somewhere where a circus came to town and when the circus was over the company came up missing a bunch of clowns. Well come to find out later on they were working for PSA/Collector Universe. Now I understand there SOP and SGP Standard Operating Procedures and Standard Grading Proceduries. This is why they had to place there grading procedures on there own web site. Not for the customer to read and understand, but for themself to understand. (They seen to forget quite often what they are doing). They just do not understand there own policy and procedures. I wish Joe Orlando or David Hall would at the very least make some comments on this web site explaining to us good people how PSA/Collector Universe got themself in a position where they are today with unsatifactory rating by the Better Business Bureau. They should just pat themselves on there own back for a job well done.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Verkman questioning grading; that's rich...

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Posted By: jay behrens

You can't say that SGC doesn't care what is being said about them outside of their boards.

Jay

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Posted By: Wesley

I have purchased a few cards from Verkman that were rejected by SGC as trimmed.

To be fair to Verkman though, they were described as VG. Good thing they were not described as EX, because trimmed cards can be graded no higher than VG.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Trimmed cards grading as high as VG? I always thought trimming automatically meant a Poor grade since the card was altered from its original state.

Jay

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Posted By: Wesley

That's what I thought too. SGC also thought that trimmed cards should not warrant a VG grade and in fact refused to encapsulate the trimmed cards.

Perhaps this difference in opinion is why Verkman no longer uses SGC.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

In 1960 the day before my birthday I attended a tryout with about 50 greater Boston locals at Fenway. Back then teams had territorial draft rights and I think they tried out most anyone who had finished high school and had held a bat. After some preliminary batting practice about 15 of us got to hit against Red Sox pitchers. I got Bill Monboquette, the first five pitches were groved fastballs and I hit them all well including on into the net and one twothirds of the way up the wall. After that Mombo looked at the guy running the tryouts and he nodded to him. The next pitch was headed for my left ear and was over the plate while I was sitting on my .ss. I had never seen anything like that and it scared me to death. I spent the rest of that summer digging cellars by hand for our next door neighbor instead of playing the Cape Cod League. Several people at that tryout did make it to the "show" Butch Reniack, Pete Smith and Wilbur Wood. Mombo was a very good pitcher for some really bad Sox teams - struck out 17 twice and pitched a no hitter. Three months later as a freshman @ MIT I walked to the park after my last class and saw Williams hit his last HR. Bonds has been amazing, but Williams was the best hitter I ever saw and yes major league pitching is scary as hell even as thin as it now is.

SORRY wrong thread

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Posted By: Davalillo

I too wish to come down on the side of SGC and against Verkman. I not only think that that SGC has and continues to offer a first class grading service but equally important I think new president and owner Dave Forman is a first class guy. I challenge Steve Verkman to come up with evidence that Dave Forman has restored cards over the last 10 years. That is an attack on Dave, on SGC, and it seems to me if he cannot back it up that Dave would consider legal action.

Davalillo