1917 Ruth Update

[Archive]

Posted By: newguy76

Just wanted to show you guys how this was progressing with this dealer... I tried to play nice... but I have a feeling it might get ugly....

My 1st E-Mail:

I'm sorry, but I have consulted some professionals on this Card and
have many concerns that it is a fake and therefore is not worth the
amount of money I bid. I am withdrawing my bid and will not pay for it.

I will however, pay for it if you are willing to send it to a grader
and it comes back authentic. I would also pay for the costs of sending
it to a grader (as long as it came back authentic).

In fact, if it is a re-print, it is in violation of EBay policy in
terms of listings and actual cards. But I don't think we want to take
it there. I do not wish to get into a negative feedback war either.

I apologize wholeheartedly, especially if you also do not know that
this is a re-print/ counter-fit as well. I ask that you allow me to
retract my bid.

-Dave

His Response:

David,

I am confused here. You purchased the card, stated you were sending payment and then decided after speaking with someone else that the card is not authentic and now you don't want it?

Can you please tell me who the other professionals are that have concluded that this is not an authentic card? I would like to know how they can decifer autenticity of a card 87 years old without seening the card live.

Thanks and I look forward to your response.

Regards,

XXXXXXX


My 2nd Response:

XXXXXXXXXX,

These are the following reasons I the item is fake. Given to me by people who know their Cards like the back of their hands... I'm not naming names.

1) That particular type of "bulging" crease is what I consider a dead give-away of a fake: it occurs when person starts "aging" the card before the glue has dried, or maybe it for some other reason, but in any case you don't see that type of crease on thin-stock cards.

From Another:

2) Notice how that card got awfully dirty and creased but those corners managed to stay pretty sharp. Also, follow the ridge of the crease on the back of the card starting from the top of the card. Notice the how it buldges up slightly ? In real E135 cards aren't thick enough to cause that kind of effect.

And Another:

3)Collins McCarthy cards are sepia in color and tend to exhibit minute cracking in the surface of the front on lower condition cards. Does this card exhibit those characteristics?

I was completely ready to pay for the card until I received this information. Like I said I am more than willing to pay for it if you can prove the item is authentic and is an actual Collins-McCarthy e135 (from 1917). Get it graded, and if it comes back authentic, I will pay for the full price of the card, and in addition, the cost of getting it graded. If not, then the item does not live up to the actual title of the auction, and it is in violation of EBay policy.

Bottom line, I cannot pay for this card unless it is professionally graded. It's a minor inconvenience for you that won't cost you a dime... why aren't you willing to do it?

-Dave


Haven't heard back yet.... wonder if I will.... I'll continue to update.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve k

Your response absolutely was well thought out and more than fair. Great that you got the information before sending out your money. Just a feeling that you may not ever hear back from this guy or that he will just send you a similar letter hoping you change your mind. Sounds as though you are going to stick to your "gameplan" no matter what he does. Good luck!

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

I did the same thing with a Ruth autograph. I did quite a bit of research on one and then contacted PSA/DNA for a quick opinion. They said it may not be genuine but that they wanted to see it in person (pencil autograph). I contacted the seller and told him this information and he was taken aback. I told him that I would pay for authentication if it passed. It did pass and all was good.

Stick to your guns on this one.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

Tell him to send you the card and that if it turns out to be genuine you will happily pay him the full amount. And tell him that if it turns out to be a home computer reprint made on modern paper you will foreward the card to the legal authorities and he can spend his time explaining to them why he's selling homemade fakes on eBay as genuine cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Gary B.

Very well communicated to this guy. I'm a bit fired up myself about fakes, and go out of my way to e-mail people to question the veracity of cards even if I'm just thinking about bidding on them. These people usually do not respond very positively beceause either:

a. they don't know their card is a fake and don't want to believe that their "valuable" card is worthless or more likely:

b. they are scammers who do NOT like it when people call them on it

Good job saving yourself a goodly amount of cash!

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

If i was the seller I would give the under bidder a shot at it, Im wondering why after winning the card you expect the owner to authenticate it for you. I understand your plight, its called buyers remorse. in any event I hope it works out for the both of you.

[Archive]

Posted By: newguy76

I do have buyers remorse, but my bank account has afterglow!

I agree he's probably not going to authenticate it... but I do feel like it's his responibility to live up to the auction title. Hopefully he will either authenticate it or just take it off the market.

And him selling it to the closest bidder (which was 40 dollars less than mine), still doesn't absolve him from possibly putting up a fake, it just rips off another EBayer. It just becomes another bad seller getting away with it from what I've read wround here. But that's the route he'll probably take...

Has anyone ever tried to compile a list of dirty sellers on here? Is there one somewhere else?

[Archive]

Posted By: newguy76

Dealers final response:

I am sorry also. However, as you can tell by my EBAY feedbacks, I am not the type of individual that deals in counterfeit cards.

I know that there are two distinct methods of determmining counterfeit older cards.

One is to hold the card up to the light to see if you can see the printing on the other side of the card.

The other is to examine the printing on the front of the card. If the ink is separated into dots, it is counterfeit.

Anyway, I don't care if you do not want the card. I guess your expert friends believe they know what they are talking about.

In any event, I would appreciate in the future that you not bid on any more of my auctions unless you are serious about paying for the card. You just cost me $15.00 in EBAY fees.

Good luck in finding another Ruth card you are comfortable with.

Regards,

XXXXX

Thanks guys! See ya around!

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

hmm 40.00 off? the one I saw in my search of ebay said it was 5.00 off, and yes the seller with 968 feedback and 99.8 positive is a "dirty seller" you imply that he is a dirty seller? why not show the auction then? let these people make up their own minds? How about we complie a list of dead beat bidders? to go with the dirty sellers list. lets just make sure the seller is in fact dirty. You mention his title? I do not see the problem with it that you do. I also read the description where he clearly stated he could make no guarentee etc. To come here and insinuate that you have been wronged when it is clearly you that are in the wrong is laughable.


Steve DiRenno

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

<< One is to hold the card up to the light to see if you can see the printing on the other side of the card.

The other is to examine the printing on the front of the card. If the ink is separated into dots, it is counterfeit.>>

Both of these are wrong and silly. For example, if you hold a genuine T206 to bright lamp you can see the printing on the other side. And if you examine a Sporting News Babe Ruth there is a dot pattern.

This is doubly silly, because if he closely examined the card he would see a dot pattern that, according to his own stated rules, would say the card is fake.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

If only the buyer was as knowledable.........

[Archive]

Posted By: newguy76

Did you see this thread I posted from yesterday?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1091033105&lp=1091056395

1) I did post the auction here yesterday

2) The feedback I got from others on this board was that I had been wronged

3) I didn't see the 400 bid because I beat it last second. He was winning at 360 something.

3) By the response from this board, he probably DOES sell fakes, including Mantles, Jordans, Gretzkys, and Lemieux's, ... he just hasn't been caught very often

4) The auction title does not accurately describe the card, no matter what verbage he threw in there to cover it. Even if you don't gurantee something you're still listing it as an item. The language he used was phrased just right to sucker an inexperienced buyer such as myself in.

5) You're guilty of the same thing I was, not enough research! Oh the irony!

I'm not trying to pick a fight, in fact I don't have enough words to properly thank most of the people here. I realize I made a mistake and have learned from the experience. That's all I can do.

Please don't treat everyone who's not as experienced like this and try in the future not to be a card snob.

Cheers!

-Dave

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

I wasn't being a snob at all and to imply im as guilty as you in not researching threads is absurd! YOUR A DEAT BEAT BIDDER that wants to change the terms AFTER you have won a card. Dont make accusations that this seller knowingly sells fakes when you cant substantiate it.


Cheers

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

"the auction title does not accuratly descibe the card".

It most certaintly does, and furthermore the seller has clearly described in his description and gave you scans!!

[Archive]

Posted By: newguy76

Look I'm sorry if I offended you. I realize it was a HUGE mistake. That's all I can offer. I've never retracted a bid in my life and I feel terrible about it, but you live and you learn. I'm leaving these boards that much wiser and I DO know that I can be considered a Dead Beat. But maybe the dealer learned something too in the process, hell I don't know. All I know is these boards saved me from a potentially disasterous buy, and I thank everyone who was positive in teaching me the right (AND WRONG) way to do things. Clearly my bid was a wrong move, but I'll always contend that Posting cards like that is wrong as well. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Thanks and goodbye everyone!

-Dave

[Archive]

Posted By: newguy76

Maybe I shouldn't leave just yet....

I also offered to pay for your EBAY fees out of courtesy. Are you going to take me up on that offer?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

I like watching these thread fights!!! Almost as good as the Yankees/Sox brawl last week, which A-Rod would have clearly won!

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

"Authenticity Disclaimers

Sellers may not disclaim knowledge of, or responsibility for, the authenticity or legality of the items offered in their listings.

Sellers should take steps to satisfy themselves that their items are authentic before listing them on eBay. If you cannot verify the authenticity of an item, do not list it.

The following examples violate eBay's Authenticity Disclaimer Policy:
"I cannot guarantee the authenticity of this item, so please bid accordingly."
"Vintage Handbag Chanel???"

Warning:
The repeated use of authenticity disclaimers could result in the ending of your listings and possible suspension from eBay."

[Archive]

Posted By: Gary B.

I thought we were always logging in now so we could see who people are (case in point, the antagonistic posts by Steve).

I think the seller has a right to be upset too, but not for the same reasons as Steve. Either:

a. He knew it was a fake card and is upset because he got busted, or

b. He had a card he didn't know was fake, and is out a lot of money because he got scammed himself.

No one should be obligated to spend money just because they won an auction if they found out the item was being seriously misrepresented, even if PERHAPS unintentionally so. Would you, Steve, pay over $400 for something you realized was not legit if you didn't hand over your money yet just because you agreed to it, even though it was under a false assumption? I know I wouldn't. I don't think anyone here would. I almost got scammed by someone a few months ago for some cards for about $100, but checked here first, found out the cards were fakes, and was extremely grateful to have not given my money to a likely criminal. I have no respect or patience for these scammers at all, they deserve a lot worse than just having someone welch on a bid.

Just my point of view...

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

Let's see, if I owned an authentic Ruth card like this and it only sold for $400, I would be quite happy the buyer backed out. Of course, all the classic signs also. Bought in an Estate sale, Not sure if it is authentic. Blah blah blah. I also think Steve's angry tone pretty much tells you all you need to know as well. I personally don't consider the buyer a deadbeat. Just lucky he found out the truth when he did.

[Archive]

Posted By: newguy76

Hankron, you're the big brother I never had....

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

Check out the items the seller has bid on recently. Does the same thing catch your eye that caught mine?

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

Newguy, I learned the hard way, with my Chanal??? and L@uis Vu1tt@n handbags.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

about that fake handbag crap. Apparently, where there are active companies (i.e., political contributors) bitching about fakes local law enforcement will go to the effort to bust counterfeit retailers, even ladies holding handbag parties. If only we gave big bucks to the powers that be, we could get ebay cleaned up in short order.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

I am not the seller and in one of my posts I signed my full name, Bill how can I divulge who I am anymore then that?

I was jsut trying to show the other side of the coin, what I saw was a bidder who has messed up an auction all because of buyers remorse. The underbidder loses, the owner loses etc.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve

I just do not see where the seller is a criminal! and do we really know the card is a fake!!! it could very possibly be legit!!! that is all i was trying to imply all along. the seller has almost 1000 feedbacks for god sakes.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Look here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2483290842</a

The seller of the "fake" Ruth card just bid on a new BMW on EBAY!!

Maybe he had printed up 10,000 of those Ruth cards and was already counting his money!!!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Steve, if you read the board for awhile, you will know that most of us have very little regard for eBay's feddback system. Most people are so afraid of getting a negative that even when they get scammed and the seller deserves it, they will not post the neg just becuase they don't want to take the retaliatory neg that the scammer will leave. Thus, most of these scumbag have what appears to be great feedback. When the feedback starts getting too bad, they just make it private or create a new account.

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

I recently went to an estate sale of Albert and Pearle Nipon that included their personal collection of Louis Vuitton, Chanel, Hermes, Tiffany bags and textiles. I had no idea how much a little silk scarf could cost-- and I thought them rather funny looking. I also found it interesting that with these types of items, provenance is significant ... And I went wearing Levi jeans, Jansport backpack and running shoes (but a Tiffany face) ... On my debit card and crumpled front pocket cash and quarters, all I could afford was a collection of 1930s magazines that I have to keep in a garbage bag because they are so moldy.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

You didn't bring Henry along to chew on the stuff you didn't win?

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh K.

Ive got to say that in my book Steve has very little credibility to make any arguments here. The seller was given every opportunity to complete the sale at no additional cost to him - just some extra time. He declined.

In addition, Steve refuses to acknowledge that despite the "as is" language in the listing, the listing violated ebay's policies. From my perspective, that makes any such deal legally voidable.

Newguy - you handled the situation in a completely appropriate manner and should have no regrets.