Zee-nut Questions...

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Posted By: Gary B.

What are among the most rare and valuable Zee-nut cards to collect? What players featured on a Zee-nut card went onto the major leagues - any hall of famers?

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Posted By: Julie

There's a Jim Thorpe Zeenut, a Joe DiMaggio, an almost complete array of Blacksox (McMullen (his only card, except for a 1917 White Sox one-of-a-kind issue), Riesberg (2), Weaver (a beauty), Lefty Williams, Hap Felch--no Cicotte, Jackson, or Gandil-they got out of the minors too early.

There are probably dozens--the ones I've mentioned all carry a high premium. After all, Zeenuts were published from 1911 till--did they ever stop? More, please.



(Weaver, 1911; McMullen, 1915. Sorry they're a bit raggedy.)

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Posted By: ErikV.

Along with the aforementioned cards, some of the Hall of Famers that appeard on a Zeenut card included:

-Harry Heilmann (1913, 1915)
-Stan Coveleski (1915)
-Sam Crawford (1921)
-Tony Lazzeri (1922,1925)
-Paul/Lloyd Waner (1923-26)
-Mickey Cochran (1924)
-Earl Averill (1926-28)
-Harry Hooper (1927)
-Lefty Gomez (1929)

Other notables include Fatty Arbuckle, Jimmy Claxton, Dom DiMaggio and Lefty O'Doul.

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Posted By: Julie

He had spent a year or so trying to pass for white in the baseball world, but couldn't--because he was about half black. One July 4th weekend in 1916, a minor league team (which?) was just about forced to call him up to pitch half a double header (apparently baseball players aren't too keen about working holidays, either), and it just so happened that the Zeenut photographer was there that day, and took his photo, along with the rest of the team. (This is of course minor league). The day would have come off all right, except that someone noticed his mother and father in the stands, rooting for him--and his mother and father were of widely different colors (Jeter's folks come to mind), and, I believe, were thrown out of the park, as well as being identified as Claxton's parents. He was very young, 19 or 20 I think, at the time. very nice looking chap--looks like..mm.. the young Ernie Banks, as a matter of fact. No, the young Cool Papa Bell.

I've always thought of it as a freak sneak rather than a breakthrough, but his card does fetch a lot of dough.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'm the psycho to ask about what players in minor league sets made it to majors since I am working on aquiring one card of everyone that played in the majors and appeared on a card between 1908-1945.

There are 863 players in the Zeenut sets that made it to the majors.
HOFers include Dave Bancroft, Earl Averill, Mickey Cochorane, Stan Coveleski, Sam Crawford, Joe Cronin, Joe DiMaggio, Harry Heilmann, Tony LAzzari, Ernie Lombardi, Llotd and Paul Waner. That's jsut looking thru my list and not double hcecking it with a list of HOFers. Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but Ernie Nevers is also in the set.

Jay

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Posted By: Gary B.

of Zee-nut cards where the player went on to the hall of fame?

Am I correct in assuming that Zee-nut cards are much harder to come by than many other issues of the day since they were minor league cards, or were they produced in similar quantities?

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Posted By: Julie

The McMullen--a utility infielder--is one of the most exoensive. That's why mine is in FR condition.

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Posted By: Al's Cousin

Jay,
I've been unable to confirm whether Al Shealy ever appeared on a Zee Nuts card. Do you know? He played for the 28 Yankees and 30 Cubs.

Thanks,
JT

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Posted By: AdamBaxter

There are some tough years including I believe 1914, 1915, 1916, 1918 (I've seen fewer of this year then any other), 1920 and I think a couple more. Home Run Kisses which are the better looking cousin of Zee Nuts and have the same ACC designation are much tougher as well. The biggest issue with Zee Nuts is condition. Zee Nuts had coupons on the bottom starting in 1913 through 1937-38 that were almost always torn or trimmed off. Very few with coupons remain and those that do carry a premium over other Zee Nuts. In his Encyclopedia, Lew Lipset reprinted part of a story by a Zee Nut collector Dick Dobbins that explained that the poor condition of Zee Nuts had a lot to do with a game called "Zee Nut shooting" back in the day. This game apparently resulted in folds, rounded corners and such. They haven't popped up on Ebay as much lately as some other PCL issues, such as Obak. The most common Zee Nuts you will find on Ebay are usually from the late 20's and 30's. The earier years tend to come up on Ebay less frequently. There are some dealers like Fritsch and Dennis King who carry pretty large inventories of these cards. Hope I've been helpful.

Regards,
Adam

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Posted By: AdamBaxter

If your hoping to score the Fatty Arbuckle, Jim Thorpe, Jimmy Claxton or any of the Black Sox players at a place Ebay or one of the big dealers then you could be waiting a long,long time. Mark Macrae had an auction advertised in VCBC some years back with these and some other Zee Nut rarities and many of them were like one of dozen known examples, etc. I've seen a Felsch and McMullen come up for sale, but I don't recall seeing Claxton, Arbuckle or Thorpe come up for sale anywhere recently. Everyone on the board will tell you that Mark Macrae is the expert on PCL issues and he'd probably know more about Zee Nut rarities then any of us.

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Posted By: AdamBaxter

Actually I think it was McMullen and Risberg I've seen for sale not Felsch. The VCBC issue that features photos of the Mark Macrae auction with some of the rare Zee Nuts that have been mentioned is #9.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

of course as someone who lives a stone's throw from Mark, I have had NO trouble amassing ALL the 1915 Blacksox--only the McMullen was very expensive. But the others have unfortunately caught up by now, or nearly so.

Another reason most Zeenuts lack their coupons is that, as i shared some time back, there were really substantial prizes offered for collections of coupons--clear through the depression, when nobody had any money to buy baseball mitts (one of the prizes--real leather ones). The Forum could not agree whether a Zeenut could be called "near mint" WITHOUT its coupon. Macrae says, against experience with all other sets, that yes, a pristine Zeenut with the coupon cut off should be called near mint, and a hefty premium added for ones with coupons.



Really spiffy 1911 Zeenut--Ben's, unless he's traded it, which is ALWAYS possible...the onlty year Zeenut didn't offer a coupon.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Here's a little more info. on the Black Sox Zeenut cards. Since 1999 the McMullin card has been sold in auction 4 times (the last being in Lew Lipset's November 2003 auction). The winning bidder paid $1,878, $2,852, $1,610 and $1,948 respectively. During this same time period the Risberg, Weaver, Williams (and non-Black Sox Jim Thorpe) have also sold in auctions in the $500-$2,000 range. Additionally, a couple of other ballplayers associated in the Black Sox scandal that have Zeenut cards include Joe Gedeon and Sleepy Bill Burns.

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Posted By: Ben

Still got the Zeenut Halla Julie it's a good'un, isn't it?

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Posted By: hankron

Scandal-wise, the portly baby-faced silent movie commedian Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle was the first O.J. Simpson-- in 1920s aquitted of murdering a woman at a Hollywood party. It appears that Arbuckle did not actually murder the woman, as she apparently died of natural if sudden causes, and Arbuckle was rightly aquitted. None the less, Arbuckle's acting and personal life career were ruined and he died a little more than a decade later ... I had a bunch of Arbuckle period memorabilia-- other cards, fan photos (little photos bought at stores or sent to fans) and a great graphical sheet music. That stuff sold for like $7-10 each, the Zeenut for, lets say, more ... For those who don't know why he would be included in the baseball card set, during his height of popularity, Arbuckle was co-owner of the PCL's Vernon (California) Tigers.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I show no Shealy in my database, but there is a Earl "Whitey" Sheeley who must have been pictured as a player and coach as he appears from 1917-20, 28, 30, 33-34.

Jay

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

and a few McMullens (at least 4--I've SEEN, personallly), and I think one other Williams. My (fr) McMullen cost $600 in a silent auction, several years ago. But he lists for thousands now--but not in such shabby condition! (SEE SCAN ABOVE)

Hey! Does anyone have any scans of Zeenut HOFers? That's what the guy originally asked for!

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Posted By: Paul

Jay, are you sure there's a Zeenut of Joe Cronin? What year? I've been collecting Zeenut HOFers for many years and never heard of this one. Thanks.

Paul

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Posted By: jay behrens

my bad, I was scanning the list fast. There is a Jim Cronin, but no Joe Cronin on my list.

Jay

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Posted By: brian p

Thought I would clarify a few points, since I am a Zee-Nut myself.
No Joe Cronin card exists in the Zeenut run, but there are at least two Cronins--A Jim and a Bill. Here is the complete Zeenut HOF list:

Dave Bancroft--1912 Home Run Kings, 1912 + 1914 Zeenut
Harry Heilmann--1913 + 1915
Stanley Covaleski--1915
Frank Chance--1916 + 1917
Sam Crawford--1918, 1920, 1921
Dazzy Vance--1919
Tony Lazzeri--1922 + 1925
Paul Waner--1923, 1924 + 1925
Mickey Cochrane--1923
Lloyd Waner--1925 + 1926
Earl Averilll--1926, 1927 + 1928
Harry Hooper--1927
Ernie Lombardi--1928, 1929 + 1930
Lefty Gomez--1929
Joe Dimaggio--1934 + 1935

Some of the popular cards not mentioned (maybe a few of these were mentioned previously-I just wasn't looking close enough) are Babe Herman, Jim Thorpe, Jimmie Reese and Dom and Vince DiMaggio.

The 1915, 1918 and 1937-38 cards are the toughest to come by, with the 1918 set probably the toughest. Most of the years have cards that are near impossible to come by, and the overall production and survival rate for Zeenuts makes the really popular cards practically non-existant.

Sorry, no images of any of the cards. Perhaps someone else on the board can provide a few.

Hope this helps,

Brian

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Posted By: Paul

There's one more Zeenut Hall of Famer. He appears in both the 1929 and 1930 sets. But he's not in Cooperstown, he's in Canton. It's Ernie Nevers.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Mark had one at the National, asking $5,000

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Posted By: jay behrens

Anyone happen to know what size a 1917 Zeenut should be with the coupon cut off? I just aquired a really nice one, but suspect that a bit more than just the coupon was trimmed off. It is 3 1/4 " long by 2 3/4" wide

Jay

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Posted By: leon

1912's didn't have coupons either. Also, I finally met Mark M. in person, at the National, and he is just as nice there as he is on the phone. I had some Black Sox Zeenuts with and without coupons, about 6 months ago, and they went privately for about 1k each. One (McMullen in pr-) had a coupon and the other 2 didn't but they were in nice SGC 30 and 40 holders, I believe. I also sold some regular, early year Zeenuts w/coupons, at the National and they brought pretty good money....as they should in the condition they were in...regards all

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Posted By: AdamBaxter

What is the final verdict on grading for Zee-Nuts? Since less then like 1% or something have the coupon, will SGC and the other grading companies encapsulate Zee-Nuts with coupons trimmed or torn off? Does anyone on the board have a Zee-Nut without the coupon that has been slabbed?

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Posted By: leon

SGC will grade the Zeenuts without coupons as I had them grade them before. I do know they look at the size and how much is cut off. Like I said I had 2 that came back in holders that didn't have coupons on them. The coupons were neatly cut off.....best regards

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I would agree with Leon that his Zee-Nuts sold for good money since it was mine, but he has understated how nice they were. Absolutly beautiful 1913, 14 & 15 cards appearing near mint with a very slight paste residue on the backs graded 3's & 4's. Thanks Leon - even my wife likes them.

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Posted By: leon

It was really nice meeting you and your son. Those Zeenuts grades made my heart drop when they came back from SGC. I was honestly expecting much higher grades. The old addage "buy the card not the holder" certainly rang true on those. I think SGC hit them a little hard even with the paste residue. Absolutely some of the best Zeenuts I have ever seen....enjoy them sir...

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Posted By: brian p

To answer Jay's question about the size of 1917 Zeenut cards when without coupon, it appears that they are usually around 1-13/16" wide by 3-3/16" tall. Like other issues of the era, there are size differences--they are often seen at 1-3/4" (which is how it is listed in the SCD Standard Catalog). I do have one that is 3-1/4" tall, so it seems like you have a tall boy. When collecting Zeenuts, one has to be extremely tolerant when it comes to dimensions and condition--better a ill-begotten monstrosity of a Zeenut than no Zeenut at all.

By the way, Jay, at 2-3/4" wide, you have a mega-jumbo 1917 Zeenut(insert smiley face utilizing upper case keyboard symbols here)

Brian

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Posted By: jay behrens

Thanks Brian. Looks like I'll be sending this off SGC to be graded.



Not sure how you other Zee-nuts missed this one on eBay but I got it for $14

Jay

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Posted By: AdamBaxter

Jay,

I actually had that very card on my watch list right up to the end, but my heart was set on several cards that I just couldn't pass on. It's not often you see a Zee Nut on Ebay that's in such great condition. Congrats on your win and please let us know how you make out with the grading.

Regards,
Adam