Newark Ball Club

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott 

I haven't done any research on this, but I'm assuming some of the names on the list were verified as being members of a base ball team; otherwise, I would be nervous about assuming that a program for a ball, sponsored by a "Ball Club" had anything to do with baseball. Thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2794329941

[Archive]

Posted By: ramram

Sources for the early 1860's show none of the Newark players matching the names on the 1856 program. Plus, why are the names listed under a "committee". Eighteen names are listed as well when most teams were comprised of nine or ten at that time. Of course, the teams were mostly a fraternal organization and could have a larger number of members but I wouldn't think they would be listed under their "ball club". The only credence I would give this item is that the seller has a strong reputation but without further proof I think it is a long stretch.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

I have no clue either as to whether or not it's an actual Base Ball piece, but my guess is no, unless someone happens to have access to some other document that lists Newark Base Ball members. Also, most baseball teams of taht era were part of a larger athletic club, so it seems odd that they would have a ball just for the base ballers. Seems more to me that it is a dance club then an athletic club. Since Gaynor is selling it, hopefully, he has some coroberating evidence to back up the claim.

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: scgaynor

The thing originates from Halper, not that the really means anything, but my thought process is what other kind of "ball" is it? It predates football, I have never heard of Cricket referred to as "ball" the teams were called "cricket clubs". What other kind of "ball" were they playing in 1856?

Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

but couldn't it be simply a social club? A "ball" club announcing their first annual "ball"?

[Archive]

Posted By: runsscott

but the title is "First Annual Ball". I'm guessing "Ball" means just that: a big dance. So maybe the "Newark Ball Club" was a group of people who liked to dance.

[Archive]

Posted By: scgaynor

A club that exists to throw dances?

Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: ramram

I've collected a large number of civil war period diaries and dance "balls" were the big social event that is mentioned many times in them. I would suspect it is a Club for that purpose. Certainly Newark was near where the game was begining to take hold at the time and at times it was just referred to as playing a game of ball but I don't think I've ever seen it referred as a "Club" without the term "Base Ball" in front of it.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Can't imagine a social club specializing in throwing dances back in the 1850s (sarcasm off) My first impression upon seeing the item and reading it was that it is a social event for a social club. If it came from the Halper collection, I would hope he had done the research to verify this is truely related to a base ball club. Short of some sort of verification that the names on the item as actual members of the Newark base ball club, it's ties to the game of baseball are dubious at best.

Just saw ramram's post. Back then, a social club that threw dances would want to be known as a Ball Club since dances were an informal affair and usually had conotations of a country event. A ball is a much more formal event and would much more appeal to high society than a group calling itself a Dance Club.

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: scgaynor

The point that I was trying to make is that there would be no reason to use the term "base ball" since I would think it would be implied as there is no other type of "ball" club to compare themselves to.

I have seen other early dance programs from this era in which there was no mention of "base ball", but had baseball graphics so the absence of the word "base" does not bother me. The bidding was pretty strong so I guess there are at least two other people who were not bothered by the fact that the word "base" was not used.

Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Scott, I have a lot of respect for you and you are certainly more than knowledgable about baseball memoribilia, but your last post comes off as sounding like something from an eBay huckster looking to maximize their money on a questionable item. Just becuase you had 2 spirited bidders does not mean you had 2 knowledgable bidders. An item like this, if it truely is tied to the Newark Base Ball Club, would have generated some talk among the people in the 19c membership of SABR, but I have not seen anything mentioned.

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

I was curious, that's all - I thought you or another board member would have an answer that supported the item's relationship to base ball.

But you are right - your good reputation and your describing it as the Newark Base Ball Club was enough to sell a couple of serious bidders on the idea, and that's fine. Personally, based on the responses to this post and looking at your scans of the item, I think it was probably a social club that threw dances - probably around holidays such as the one described on this program (eve of Valentine's day).

Scott - these are just discussions. They come up all the time when board members have questions about a vintage baseball-related item on ebay. We are trying to learn more. I respect your knowledge and experience, which is why I emailed you Saturday morning about the item, and why I posted here when you did not respond.

[Archive]

Posted By: scgaynor

Jay and Scott, I am not at all offended by your posts, I enjoy a good discussion too and I appreciate your positive opinion of me as a seller.

It is true, there is probably no way to pin down exactly what the program is for, I am still comfortable with describing it as baseball, but if people didn't bid because they don't believe it is Baseball, I can understand why.

Scott

[GaryPassamonte]

I just found this old thread while doing some research. Here is a ticket I have that pertains to the subject.