Was this really worth the price?

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Posted By: runscott

It's a Horner photo of a NY player, probably NY Giants Hooks Wiltse. I am just getting into cainets of pro players - what's the verdict?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3202592486&category=13705

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Posted By: Hankron

Nice photo, but, in my opinion, way too high a final price.

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Posted By: First Last

...then it likely isn't Wiltse who didn't play until 1904. http://baseball-reference.com/w/wiltsho01.shtml

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Posted By: Hanrkon

The photo is not from the 1890s, but the early 1900s. An embossment like that surrounding the the photographic image was rarely if ever used on 19th century baseball cabinets. It was typial in the early 1900s.

A six figure price for early 1900s cabinet card is ordinarily reserved for popular Hall of Famers, like Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson and Joe Jackson.

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Posted By: Hankron

Having counted on my fingers, I change it to 'four figure' ($1,000+)

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Posted By: Tom

my maxx sniper bid was $625.00, which at 5 seconds didn't get ANYWHERE close to winning.........

most of the Horner cabinets typically sell in the $500-$700 range with HOF'ers like Lajoie and others I've seen selling for $1000-$1500 or more.

Oddly enough, this is the only full body shot I've seen in Horner cabinet so maybe that juiced someone.....

Still a little high by $200-$300 if you ask me.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

It could be a Giant or a Highlander player from the the early 1900s. There is a great book-Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century by Mark Okkonen that shows representative uniforms for every team, by year(home and away)from 1900-1991.

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Posted By: Elliot

If you have any doubt, just make sure to scroll all the way down the listing, and you will see that somebody pointed this out to him, and he has included a copy of Wiltse's t206 card. You just need to ignore the seller's initial rambling. I believe the issue date to be around 1906.

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Posted By: Hankron

When I posted earlier, I did not realize that the photograph was by Carl Horner. Horner's original cabinets are very rare and very desirable, and the final sell price is, in my mind, no longer overly unreasonable. To those who don't know, Horner took many of the photographs used to make the player images on the T206 cards, including the famous portrait of Honus Wagner.

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Posted By: JC

As husband-of-tammy, I thought that the clarity and the rarity of the Carl Horner Cabinet was still under valued. My wife dragged me out for dinner or I would have went higher. This is the 2nd time in 3 years I've seen one up for auction. Remember 2 years ago when the Joe Dimaggio zeenut was booking at 2000.00 and a small premium for have the coupon.

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Posted By: Hankron

I think JC is correct in every respect except that, as $1,000 for a common player suggests, they are no longer undervalued.

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Posted By: JC

Thank You Hankron for the support! Leon Tells me I'm crazy for some of the things I buy. I'm trying to get him into Cabinets and early century Postcards, but no LUCK yet.
Thank God the market still makes the price. Many people don't know or take the time to investigate how rare a piece is and rely's on Price guides. S-81 Silks should book for 10,000 or more on how rare they are (other than Mathewson) but, they don't come up enough to buy and set a market price. When they do, it's in a massive 20 or 30 thousand dollar lot that most people can't afford, even though it's a great price.

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Posted By: scgaynor

I knew a dealer in Wisconsin who had this same piece and he acquired it from the Wiltse estate. Horner was known to sell his pictures to the public, but I wonder if it is the same one?

Scott

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Posted By: Hankron

Due to the rarity and style of the cabinet, it is reasonable to assume that it was made for Wiltse himself, the family or for other specialty purpose.

The oversized 'Horner Cabinets' were likely issued commercially to the general public. Likely as premiums or sold directly through stores or mail order. These use Horner's images, but his name is not found on the photos. The images are photoengravings (mechanical print/tiny dot pattern in the image), not real photo (no dot pattern) which says that that they were made for commercial purposes. Lastly, the 'cabinet' in the name is a misnomer, as they are too large to be cabinet cards. These 'Horner Cabinets' are not easy to find and can be pricey, but are not nearly as rare as the real photo cabinet cards, like the Wiltse.

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

It's funny because I never look in the BB photo section, but yesterday I "searched Highest priced items first" in this category and saw this cabinet card of Wiltse and thought "WTF?" Obviously, I didn't know what it was.

It's like hearing a really bad song on the radio until the dj comes on and tells you that it was Carlos Santana at which point you realise the errors of your ways and acknowledge the songs greatness.

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Posted By: Hankron

RC, your last point was a wise and accurate insight into human nature.

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Posted By: Tom B

with no doubt. Like I said earlier, a full pose Horner is pretty scarce too. Most of the 'common' Horners will sell for $500-$700 and upwards for HOFers. The Wagner sold for something like $6K or $9K I believe the last time that the T206 PSA8 sold.

Someone recently had the Lajoie. I think Scott Forrest was trying to find the photos of the players that were used in the T206 set and has quite a few Horner's pictured on his website. Can't remember the URL for his website right now. Scott?

I think cabinets are underappreciated and undervalued. OJ's, W600's, mounted T5's, Newsboys (especially) and others are/were produced in significantly smaller quantities than were the normal cards of the day. Also, due to the process of ordering (in most cases) what the consumer wanted through coupon exchanges, many of the non-HOFers or 'common' players are extremely scarce because no one wanted them as much as Anson, Kelly, Cobb, Johnson, etc....

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Posted By: James Verrill

I can't believe so many of you think this piece went for a "high price".

I bid on this all the way up to just under $900.00, and would have (and should have earlier) gone higher, had I not been distracted by putting my four year old daughter to bed.

What a piece this is. A veritable bargain at the end price of just over $1k!

I mean, seriously, this card was in better-condition, with a very clear image, practically no staining, and it had the raised Horner embossment at the bottom. A super example!

Realistically, these pieces are PHENOMENALLY tough! Any piece that belongs to such a small scarce group that can only be estimated in volume as they are made available by private offering? There is no one out there that can even accurately list which players these were done of! Take that, practically non-existent circulation (which could be counted on how many fingers?), and the fact it has raised embossment of one of the most noted photographic studios of the time (and since), depicting a major league player in his rookie year, and you have a truly magnificent piece! Talk about a signifigant and substantial representation of the era!

My own estimation on this - it is worth $2k and maybe as much as $3k through "a" National Auction house.

I would have loved to have had that in my collection! What a GEM!

JV

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Posted By: runscott

Remember: there's no crying in vintage baseball

www.auctionsniper.com

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Posted By: Tom B

will bear the prices and if you've followed sales of Horner cabinets over last 2-3 years, I don't think any have brought too much more than slightly more than $1K. I passed on one a couple nationals ago for $300-$400 (incorrectly, of course). Unfortunatly, as with many cabinet issues, the collecting group is smaller than with the standard 'T' and 'N' card issues. You can have great scarcity but little appreciation in value. Plus they weren't commercially issued with any product. I agree about the beauty and scarcity 110% but the economics of their value just isn't there (YET).

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

FYI,
The uniform on the photo does not seem to fit squarely into any Yankee/Highlander uni identified in Okkonen's book. Most closely resembles the 1907 road uniform, which was gray, but Okkonen has that uni matched with a dark cap.

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Posted By: Elliot

Wiltse was a NY Giant, not Highlander.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

forgot someone determined that it was Wiltse. In that case, you're right Elliot, so I won't look for him to appear in a Highlander uniform any time soon.

Looks like the uni was from the 1905 season, then, worn prior to the World Series.

I agree that the price is not out of line, and that this will easily hold its own as an investment.
regards....................todd