T332 Helmar stamps-- dates and T205 images

[nolemmings]

I don’t collect T332 Helmar stamps but in doing some preliminary research into a related topic I see where they were issued in 1912, or at least some of them based on team affiliations. My guess is they were issued over both years 1911-12, but was hoping others could chime in. Hope that doesn't mess up anyone's rookie card collection, although I see it could impact Max Carey's first "card".

My interest was piqued by a recent inquiry into the T205 set which advertises “400 designs” and whether/what other subjects were contemplated beyond the number actually issued. Because the Helmar stamps use the same images as T205 I wonder if the artwork for those players was going to be used in subsequent T205 offerings that never got off the ground, possibly due to the anti-trust litigation that broke up the ATC in 1911.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

similar to T202 End Panels which have a Joe Wood that isn't in the T205 set.

[phlflyer1]

Nothing to add as far as the production date of the set but thought this thread could use an image or two.

Here is my lone T332 example along with a period Helmar box and the glassine envelope that they were packaged in.

Note that the pictures were taken at different times so they are not on the same scale

[h2oya311]

I don’t believe the T332 Helmar Stamps replicate the T205 set. There may be a few shared images, but it’s not like the similarities between the T330-2 Piedmont Art Stamps and the T205 set, which are pretty much identical excepting three stamps in the Piedmont Art Stamp set that aren’t in the T205 set and several T205s that aren’t in the Piedmont Art Stamp set.

Here’s Hal Chase as an example. These are not sized correctly, but it’s pretty clear they aren’t the same.

Helmar Stamp:


Piedmont Art Stamps (same images of the T205s):

[h2oya311]

That said, I’d be very interested in the dating of the Helmar Stamp set. I always assumed it was from 1911 but hadn’t considered looking into an alternate date (or multiple dates).

[nolemmings]

Hi Derek,
I didn’t say that the Helmar stamps replicated T205, or didn’t mean to say that. I believe it’s highly interesting that the images used in T332 came from the same source as was used in T205. I hypothesize that the additional subjects found in the stamps but not included in T205 were intended to be used in future “series” of T205 but that the idea was aborted, which left the images unused for that purpose.

Most of the Helmars in fact use the exact same images as found in T205, showing some sort of familial relationship IMO. So where did the other Helmar images come from? Has anyone tied them to any other card set or photographer’s work?

It wouldn’t surprise me if additional T205s were contemplated–Lajoie and Crawford are conspicuously absent from T205, for example, and that those images are found in the stamps. As for the Chase you posted, that image was used in P2 pins and Px7 domino disks, which are clearly tied to T205. It is possible that old Hal was going to get another T205, or that this image was rejected in favor of the other two when T205 was finalized.
[not mine]


As for the date of Helmar stamps, the easiest proof of a 1912 issuance is found in the stamps of Mike Donlin, George Stovall and Gabby Street, shown as Pirates, Browns and Yankees respectively, which are teams they did not join until calendar year 1912. There are other hints from players who didn’t begin their big league careers until 1911 and had short and/or unremarkable stats that year (Hartley and Richter), as well as managerial moves showing Griffith and Harry Davis on teams they were not hired to skipper until after the 1911 season.

[h2oya311]

Amazing Todd!

How was this not contemplated when they did the dating of this set? I never looked at the players or teams but now I’m inclined to do so. Do you think the set was issued entirely in 1912 or do you think there might be some that were issued in 1911 as well?

It seems obvious that some (at a minimum) were issued in 1912 given those team/player changes.

Insane that this is only now coming up. Thanks for sharing.

[sb1]

Very interesting, as I have a complete set of these in my next auction. Will have to do some more research and also check for what appears may be a color variation or two.

[h2oya311]

In response to Scott’s prior post…I have seen a color variation or two, but, from my understanding, they are from a color pass not making it through. Case in point, no blue ink on the yellow background “variation”:



I would consider these errors vs. true variations.

[TCMA]

Nearly every image used for both the T205 set and Helmar stamps (there may be a handful of exceptions), was shot by Paul Thompson’s news photo service in 1910. They made a concerted effort to shoot a portrait of every player in the league that season (see 1911 Spalding Guide), then from 1911-13 they predominantly shot only the rookies and players who changed teams. You’ll find 1911 images among the Helmar stamps that don’t appear in the T205 set. Here’s a bunch:




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