HOF? Pettitte; Sabathia: Either; Nether; Both

[clydepepper]

C.C. hits the ballot for the first time in January; Pettitte will make his 7th appearance, getting 13.5% last year.

Comparable NYY Lefties.

Pettitte- 256W-153L, 3.85, 2448K
Post-Season: 19-11, 3.81, 183K

Sabathia- 251W-161L, 3.74, 3089K
Post-Season: 10-7, 4.28, 121K

.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

My unscientific take is, there is no time in his career where anyone said "Oh shit, we have to face Petitte tomorrow." There was definitely times you felt that way about Sabathia.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

C.C. hits the ballot for the first time in January; Pettitte will make his 7th appearance, getting 13.5% last year.

Comparable NYY Lefties.

Pettitte- 256W-153L, 3.85, 2448K
Post-Season: 19-11, 3.81, 183K

Sabathia- 251W-161L, 3.74, 3089K
Post-Season: 10-7, 4.28, 121K

.

CC Sabathia has a better shot considering there were never any PED allegations against him.

[packs]

I think CC will get in. He has 3,000 K’s and that’s a milestone number.

Pettitte would be in if not for his PED stain and I don’t think he’ll escape it. He has 100 wins over losses and he was THE MAN in New York for his entire career. Whoever said nobody feared Andy is entitled to their opinion but in New York there was only one pitcher you wanted out there: Andy.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

I think CC will get in. He has 3,000 K’s and that’s a milestone number.

Pettitte would be in if not for his PED stain and I don’t think he’ll escape it. He has 100 wins over losses and he was THE MAN in New York for his entire career. Whoever said nobody feared Andy is entitled to their opinion but in New York there was only one pitcher you wanted out there: Andy.

+1

Sabathia probably gets in 2nd ballot and Pettitte would get it in if not for the PED stain.

Pettitte had 4 top 5 Cy Young finishes, won 5 World Series, won 19 games in the postseason, was ALCS MVP. 19 wins is the postseason is the most by any player, ever. That alone is almost enough to get him in.

[packs]

Another thing I love about Andy is the guy never had a losing season in his career. He did finish with a 500 record twice but he was the kind of pitcher who always gave you a chance to win. Yankee legend.

[D. Bergin]

Pettitte learned a lot of things from Roger Clemens when he came to the Yankees. Both good and bad.

It's not a coincidence that Andy followed Roger to Houston and then they met up back with the Yankees in 2007 for Roger's swan song.

Pettitte was famously the only Yankee who attempted to work out with Roger, who would eventually be able to keep up with him.

[Mike D.]

I think they both belong, but I do find it interesting that Pettitte has not gotten much traction, but I hear a lot of folks talk about Sabathia a someone "likely" to be a first-ballot inductee.

We'll see how Sabathia does this year. If he does get in or get close, is the PED thing the big difference?

The Top 9 CC Sabathia Rookie Cards

Every thread needs a card!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I think they both belong, but I do find it interesting that Pettitte has not gotten much traction, but I hear a lot of folks talk about Sabathia a someone "likely" to be a first-ballot inductee.

We'll see how Sabathia does this year. If he does get in or get close, is the PED thing the big difference?

The PED thing and the 3000 K's along with a Cy Young in his duffel bag are certainly factors. C.C. also had a lower career WHIP...more black ink and more gray ink then Pettitte. He was just slightly better then Pettitte in most aspects not involving Postseason performances.


.....but mostly the PED's.


I do think 2005 in Houston was a very suspicious season for both Roger (should have won the Cy Young) and Andy.

[packs]

For such a storied franchise the Yankees have very few home grown all-time Yankee aces. There's Lefty Gomez, Whitey Ford, Ron Guidry and Andy Pettitte. The Yankees seem to wait a long time for a guy like him to come along.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

+1

Sabathia probably gets in 2nd ballot and Pettitte would get it in if not for the PED stain.

Pettitte had 4 top 5 Cy Young finishes, won 5 World Series, won 19 games in the postseason, was ALCS MVP. 19 wins is the postseason is the most by any player, ever. That alone is almost enough to get him in.

I have a hard time giving a damn about post season counting stats. Your TEAM has to get you there an awful lot to give you even a chance of racking those numbers up. So I have a hard time saying Petitte was greater than say Felix Hernandez, because he got a ton of postseason opportunities. When Fernandez was a much more dominant pitcher overall, albeit one who was, unfortunately, finished at a much younger age. Then again that's what PED's gets you.

[packs]

I see the point about the team you're on but I think there's another side to that argument too.

You know what Andy could do in the postseason and what you know is that you had a winner on the mound.

Other guys, who knows? There's something to be said for certainty.

[KJA]

I think Sabathia gets in by the 3rd ballot.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I have a hard time giving a damn about post season counting stats. Your TEAM has to get you there an awful lot to give you even a chance of racking those numbers up. So I have a hard time saying Petitte was greater than say Felix Hernandez, because he got a ton of postseason opportunities. When Fernandez was a much more dominant pitcher overall, albeit one who was, unfortunately, finished at a much younger age. Then again that's what PED's gets you.

A bit confused by your Felix Hernandez comment. How did you come to the conclusion that you think I think Pettitte is better than Felix?

But since you brought up Felix, I think he is actually pretty comparable to Pettitte. Felix has the Cy Young and 2 ERA titles, but as you mentioned, his career was pretty short--he was basically done by age 30. Wins may be a somewhat meaningless number, but Felix's 169 wins compared to Pettitte's 259 is maybe meaningful, and speaks to Pettitte's consistency over time--he still going strong into his 40s.

Felix never got to 50 WAR, and Pettitte's was over 60. Felix's JAWS is 97th for a starting pitcher at 44.1, and Pettitte's is 82nd at 47.2.

Both have a career ERA+ of 117, 4 Top 5 Cy Young finishes, but got there in different ways. Felix was more of a power pitcher, with 8.3 strikeouts per 9 to Pettitte's 6.6 strikeouts per 9. But Pettitte being more of a pitch to contact guy may have helped with his longevity.

Its not Felix's fault he never saw a postseason opportunity (except for maybe in 2018 when his poor play may kept them out of the playoffs) . But its also not Pettitte's fault that he did. Pettitte took advantage of great situation to record the most postseason wins ever.

[carlsonjok]

As a Yankees fan, I wouldn't mind seeing either make it, but as stated above, I think CC has a much stronger case. That said, there was a few years in the latter part of his career, CC was pretty ineffective and almost painful to watch. He improved again in 2016 through 2018 but those few years before that were absolutely brutal.

As a final point, Pettite would never have a bobblehead as glorious as this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Very close in WAR as well as counting stats. But Pettitte has the scarlet letter.

[BearBailey]

Neither.

[G1911]

I would think Sabathia gets in via the writers. 250 wins has been reached by Verlander, but otherwise appears to be a thing we aren't going to see anymore, and it will make him stick out.

Pettitte was hurt by, even though they really aren't all that far removed from each other, competing with Maddux, Johnson, Clemens, Mussina, Smoltz, Glavine, Schilling, et al. A lot of great pitchers who put together long careers for the hall. He is more hurt by the steroids but even without them I think he'd have a harder time, even if that really isn't fair.

Both are real borderline candidates, careers adding up to significant value but little in the way of traditional HOF credentials. The kind of candidates that sometimes get in after awhile and sometimes never do.

[sports-cards-forever]

Pettitte was great but never considered an Ace, like Sabathia

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by packs

For such a storied franchise the Yankees have very few home grown all-time Yankee aces. There's Lefty Gomez, Whitey Ford, Ron Guidry and Andy Pettitte. The Yankees seem to wait a long time for a guy like him to come along.

Vic Raschi
Mariano Rivera (maybe?)