1967 Topps 6th Series

[Cliff Bowman]

Bob(by) Tolan is to the right of Harmon Killebrew which makes Killebrew a 3x because Tolan is inarguably a 3x.

[Cliff Bowman]

Well that settles it, this proves the 1967 Tony Perez is a Short Print .

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Well that settles it, this proves the 1967 Tony Perez is a Short Print .

Seems definitive to me, excellent research proving this one! Stickers don’t lie

[Cliff Bowman]

#469 Len Gabrielson is to the right of Bert Campaneris on a 3x row. If not for these 1967 6th Series back miscuts this Series would be be a fool's errand like the 1966 6th Series.

[bxb]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

#469 Len Gabrielson is to the right of Bert Campaneris on a 3x row. If not for these 1967 6th Series back miscuts this Series would be be a fool's errand like the 1966 6th Series.

A similar process was used to decipher the Rosetta stone over 200 years ago.

The 1967 6th series is only slightly more complex.

[Cliff Bowman]

I can’t show a scan at the moment but I found another one of those 1967 6th Series severe miscut backs on eBay, Bert Campaneris is to the right of Jim King, so there is a run of Jim King-Bert Campaneris-Len Gabrielson on a 3x row with Marcelino Lopez directly above Gabrielson on another 3x row.

[Kevvyg1026]

1967_509.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Another one finally popped up, #491 Sam Bowens is to the right of Bill Mazeroski. I believe I now know the 11 cards in the Gary Bell row along with the 11 cards in the Bird Bombers row but I need more confirmation. I believe the 11 cards in the Bird Bombers are in order Bird Bombers, J Fisher, Menke, Hicks, Talbot, Hunt, L Thomas, Marichal, Santiago, Palmer but I need confirmation of Talbot-Hunt. I believe the Gary Bell row goes in order Bell, Burgess, Coombs, Rigney, Wert, McCovey, Landis, Martinez, Mazeroski, Bowens, Ribant, but I need confirmation of McCovey-Landis and Bowens-Ribant. Both rows are 4x. Also, Kevvyg1026 discovered that the Tony Perez row can have either the B Robinson Checklist row or the G Bell row above it.

[bb66]

Cliff thanks again to you and Kevvyg. I have always wondered about this series and you all are exposing it! Kudos.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by bb66

Cliff thanks again to you and Kevvyg. I have always wondered about this series and you all are exposing it! Kudos.

We finished the 1966 Topps 3rd Series 88 different card sheet but unfortunately my source for recreating the virtual sheets with cards skipped out on me. We are still four cards away from finishing the 1966 Topps 5th Series, just waiting for miscuts of Hickman, J Miller, Wakefield, and Washburn. We are nowhere close on the 1966 Topps 4th and 6th Series or the 1969 Topps 3rd and 7th Series.

[Kevvyg1026]

Not a pic, but an Excel sunnary of series 3 from 1966.

1966_topps_series_3.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

#496 Orlando McFarlane is to the right of the Dodgers Team card on what I believe is the 4x Felix Mantilla row, there are three 4x rows and I believe the other two are complete, the Bird Bombers row and the Gary Bell row.

[Cliff Bowman]

Finally! It's been such a long dry spell I was beginning to wonder if another one would pop up before the new year. Tim McCarver is to the left of the Braves Team card. I believe McCarver is in the 5 slot on the Brooks Robinson row, I have the Braves Team card in the 6 slot under Willie McCovey.

[bb66]

Wow more info ! Thanks

[Cliff Bowman]

Seeing this miscut threw me for a loop, it means I have a flaw somewhere. This Reynolds is obviously on the top row of one of the two Slits, but I thought I had completed each of the two rows at the top of each Slit, the Bird Bombers row and the Gary Bell row. I think the flaw may be that the run of Landis-Martinez-Mazeroski-Bowers is not in the Gary Bell row in slots 7-10 but is actually on the Mantilla row along with Reynolds. That would make the Bird Bombers row and the Mantilla rows at the top of each Slit. Hopefully some new miscuts pop up to remedy the dilemma.

[Cliff Bowman]

Kevvyg1026 found this one, Ted Davidson is to the right of Max Alvis so that means the first three cards of the 4x Mantilla row are Felix Mantilla, Max Alvis, and Ted Davidson.

[Cliff Bowman]

I found a couple of them, Felix Mantilla is above Bob Miller which means the 4x Mantilla row is above the 3x Miller row at some point on the two Slits. Bill Monbouquette is to the right of Pirates Rookie Stars which means Monbouquette is the second card in the 3x Pirates Rookie Stars row under the Tony Perez row.

[Cliff Bowman]

Larry Dierker is to the right of Jerry Zimmerman on a not yet known 3x row.

[Cliff Bowman]

This miscut is confirmation that Fred Talbot is to the left of Ron Hunt as I suspected but lacked definitive proof. The 4x Bird Bombers row is now confirmed as complete as Bird Bombers - Jack Fisher - Denis Menke - Jim Hicks - Fred Talbot - Ron Hunt - Lee Thomas - Juan Marichal - Jim Merritt - Jose Santiago - Jim Palmer.

[Cliff Bowman]

Kevvyg1026 found this one, Tribe Hill Aces is to the right of Ted Davidson on the 4x Felix Mantilla row which makes the first four cards of the row Mantilla - Alvis - Davidson - Tribe Hill Aces, and it also puts Leo Durocher as the fourth card and Gerry Arrigo as the fifth card in the 3x Pirates Rookie Stars row because Durocher is above Tribe Hill Aces.

[Cliff Bowman]

#459 Senators Rookie Stars (Dick Bosman) is to the right of Sam Bowens, every single #459 Senators Rookie Stars has a stray black ink dot in the same identical spot as the stray black dot on the card to the right of the miscut Bowens card. That means there is a five card consecutive run of Jim Landis-Orlando Martinez-Bill Mazeroski-Sam Bowens-Senators Rookie Stars in the missing six slots of the Felix Mantilla row, Tommie Reynolds is almost certainly the missing sixth card either to the left of Landis or to the right of the Senators Rookie Stars card.

[Cliff Bowman]

I was searching through the Variations thread for a different reason when I stumbled upon two 1967 Topps 6th Series cards with miscut backs on page 40 post #1962 submitted by Elberson. One of them is a key card that I need to know who is to the right of, #463 Tribe Hill Aces. I suspected that it had to be either Tommie Reynolds or Jim Landis. It is definitely not Landis, but after blowing up the scan it appears to be a perfect match for Reynolds. That means the 4x Mantilla row is complete with Mantilla-Alvis-Davidson-Tribe Hill Aces-Reynolds-Landis-Martinez-Mazeroski-Bowens-Senators Rookie Stars (Bosman)-Horton. That now makes two of the three 4x rows complete, I still need to place four more cards on the 4x Gary Bell row.

[deweyinthehall]

Outstanding detective work!

I'm keeping score at home, and from following this thread, I show the following 6th series cards as yet to have either a right or left side mate identified, in other words in terms of their row placements, they're complete islands to themselves. If any have been placed, even on one side, please advise:

Barton, Shaw, Adair, Twins Rookies, Clemons, Indians Rookies, Griffith, Helms, Burgess, Lopez, Stephenson, Tigers Rookies, Alou

Also, the longest section of a single row, without knowing the whole row, stands at: Coombs/Rigney/Wert/McCovey - yes?

[jchcollins]

Just to chime in here as a '67 collector - but not someone who is going to have the time to do this type of detective work - kudos and bravo to all of you for what you are doing in trying to reconstruct these sheets. I know which cards are more difficult mainly based on price tag in the 7th series. Though I have nailed down a good number of the HOF cards out of this set already, I have a ways to go with commons and 7th series.

Excuse me for being a pinecone, but what is a "slit" - is that just a row on the sheet?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Just to chime in here as a '67 collector - but not someone who is going to have the time to do this type of detective work - kudos and bravo to all of you for what you are doing in trying to reconstruct these sheets. I know which cards are more difficult mainly based on price tag in the 7th series. Though I have nailed down a good number of the HOF cards out of this set already, I have a ways to go with commons and 7th series.

Excuse me for being a pinecone, but what is a "slit" - is that just a row on the sheet?

A slit is one of the two 132 card sheets that were printed together at one time in a huge 264 card sheet that was then cut in half to make two separate sheets that were then cut by machine, the left one would be Slit A and the right one would be Slit B. A row is the horizontal 11 cards in a certain 'row' identified by whoever the lead card card, for example the Tony Perez row of the 1967 Topps 6th Series. A vertical "row' of cards is described as a column.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Outstanding detective work!

I'm keeping score at home, and from following this thread, I show the following 6th series cards as yet to have either a right or left side mate identified, in other words in terms of their row placements, they're complete islands to themselves. If any have been placed, even on one side, please advise:

Barton, Shaw, Adair, Twins Rookies, Clemons, Indians Rookies, Griffith, Helms, Burgess, Lopez, Stephenson, Tigers Rookies, Alou

Also, the longest section of a single row, without knowing the whole row, stands at: Coombs/Rigney/Wert/McCovey - yes?

Clemens is next to Perez, the second card in the Perez row. The Bell row has Bell-Burgess-Coombs-Rigney-Wert-McCovey-?-?-?-?-Ribant. These aren't confirmed, but Kevvyg1026 and I currently have Lachemann and the Giants Team card in the 4 and 5 slots of the Bob Miller row, the Dodgers Team card, McFarlane, Indians Rookie Stars in the 8, 9, and 10 slots of the Gary Bell row, Shaw, McCarver, and the Braves Team card in the 4, 5, 6 slots of the Brooks Robinson Checklist row, Ortega in the 10 slot of the Brooks Robinson Checklist row, Twins Rookie Stars and Cloninger in the 4 and 5 slots of the Tony Perez row, Durocher and Arrigo in the 4 and 5 slots of the Pirates Rookie Stars row. Unfortunately we have nothing on Barton, Adair, Griffith, Helms, Stephenson, or the Pirates Team card yet but we have no doubt they are 3x cards. We have combos of Zimmerman-Dierker, Killebrew-Tolan, King-Campaneris-Gabrielson with Lopez above Gabrielson, Houk-Werhas that are somewhere in the 3x rows. Felipe Alou and Tigers Rookie Stars are the mystery cards, they both have quantities that would qualify both as 4x but there is only space for one more 4x if we have everything correct. I would love to know who is to the right of Willie McCovey but nothing has shown up yet. We currently have the four cards missing in the Gary Bell row as slot 7 unknown (possibly Alou, Tigers Rookie Stars, or Indians Rookie Stars, slot 8 Dodgers Team card, slot 9 McFarlane, slot 10 either Indians Rookie Stars or Tigers Rookie Stars (it has to be a Rookie Stars card because the card above it, Jose Santiago. has a Rookie Stars card under it).

[Cliff Bowman]

These are a few more 67 6th Series miscut back scans that I got from member Elberson, nothing new but it confirms Clemens is to the right of Perez, Wert is to the right of Rigney, and the Marichal Checklist is on the right edge of the sheet.

[Cliff Bowman]

I found the position of one of the two mystery cards that I figured might be the final unknown 4x card, #526 Tigers Rookie Stars is actually the last card on the 3x Bob Miller row. That means the other mystery card, #530 Felipe Alou, is probably the final 4x card on the Gary Bell row in the 7 slot between Willie McCovey and the Dodgers Team card. I am going by the quantities that #530 Felipe Alou is available on eBay and other sites but it can't be confirmed until some proof shows up.

[Cliff Bowman]

I never explained how Smoky Burgess is the second card in the 4x Gary Bell row or how Rene Lachemann and the Giants Team card are possibly in the four and five slots of the 3x Bob Miller row. Some Burgess cards can be found with a partial line at the bottom, that line starts on the bottom of some Gary Bell cards. On the part of the sheet where the Gary Bell row is above the Tony Perez row there is always a print line between the two rows that runs under Bell and Burgess and above Tony Perez and Doug Clemens. On the Lachemann and the Giants Team card, there is a COMC scan of a miscut Giants Team in the Sold section that unfortunately cannot be blown up but it appears that it is above Fred Talbot, which then places the Giants Team card in the five slot of the Miller row and then Lachemann in the four slot of the Miller row because Lachemann is to the left of the Giants Team card.

[Kevvyg1026]

We also know that the Birds Belters and Felix Mantilla rows are at the top of the two slits.

From a pattern standpoint, we know that the Perez row is below two different rows, one headed by the Brooks checklist and the other headed by Bob Miller, and that the Perez row creates a wrong back with that of the Birds Belters (because of Palmer at the end of the Birds row). This means that the Palmer row and the Perez row are diametrically opposed on the two slits, at least one location on the two slits.

[Cliff Bowman]

Kevvyg1026 found this one, Orlando Martinez is above Jerry Zimmerman which means Zimmerman is in the 7 slot of the Bob Miller row and Larry Dierker is in the 8 slot of the Bob Miller row. That means there is only missing card in the Bob Miller row if everything is correct, the 6 slot, which has to be one of these cards, Adair, Barton, Griffith, Helms, Pirates Team card, or Stephenson.

[bb66]

Great info!

[deweyinthehall]

I started assembling a visual of what we have so far. I spent a while reviewing this thread from start to finish (started by myself, bemoaning the price of 6th series cards - I managed to complete the set this summer) and have a couple of questions:

1) How was it determined that Willie Horton (and Rico Petrocelli thanks to a vertical miscut) are located at the far right edge of a row?
2) How was it determined that Reynolds-Landis-Martinez completes a row started by Mantilla and ended by the aforementioned Horton - how did those 3 cards get linked together, left to right?

I scoured the usual sources for new miscuts and found none. I did find these 2 Bill Monbouquettes for sale at Dean's presently (each listed in 'good' condition, yours for $6.75) - I don't know what the initials stand for, but I'm thinking some kid did NOT like Mr. Monbouquette...

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

1) How was it determined that Willie Horton (and Rico Petrocelli thanks to a vertical miscut) are located at the far right edge of a row?
2) How was it determined that Reynolds-Landis-Martinez completes a row started by Mantilla and ended by the aforementioned Horton - how did those 3 cards get linked together, left to right?

Kevvyg1026 and I don't have definitive proof that Petrocelli is the last card of the Pirates Rookie Stars row and that Horton is the last card of the Mantilla row, it is assumed for a few reasons, way back bxb supplied a miscut showing Petrocelli is above Horton, then someone else showed a scan of Horton with a recurring print flaw of a partially missing border line that usually results from being on the outer edge of a sheet, and I found a scan of a Petrocelli with a wavy right side that is synonymous with being on the left or right side from one of the two Slits that was cut in half by hand. It is very possible we are wrong but with the evidence especially the Petrocelli wavy cut side I am very confident they are both right edge cards. For quite a while (see post #115) I believed that the four card consecutive run of Landis-Martinez-Mazeroski-Bowens was in the Gary Bell row but when a Tommie Reynolds miscut popped up showing that it was at the top of a Slit I realized that I had a major flaw somewhere, I realized that Reynolds and Landis must be in the same row because there were miscuts of both showing that they were both in a row at the top of a Slit, the Bird Bombers row was at the top of one Slit and there can only be two different rows at the top of each Slit. The 33 card 1967 Topps proof sheet that Keith Olbermann spotted the "Tommy" Reynolds error card on at the auction in New York in 1989 has Tommie Reynolds (per Olbermann), Tony Perez, Harmon Killebrew, and Leo Durocher (per the catalog), so Kevvyg1026 and I have surmised that the three rows on the 33 card proof sheet are the 3x Tony Perez row, the 3x Pirates Rookie Stars row, and the 4x Felix Mantilla row, Perez is of course on the Tony Perez row, Durocher is on the Pirates Rookie Stars row, the not yet placed Killebrew is probably on the Tony Perez row, and the Reynolds is on the Felix Mantilla row. I think that is the only major change I have made so far, having the four card run incorrectly in the Gary Bell row and then correctly putting them in the Felix Mantilla row.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

2) How was it determined that Reynolds-Landis-Martinez completes a row started by Mantilla and ended by the aforementioned Horton - how did those 3 cards get linked together, left to right?

Landis is to the left of Martinez per the first miscut, Martinez is to the left of Mazeroski per the second miscut, Mazeroski is to the left of Bowens per the third miscut, Bowens is the left of Senators Rookie Stars per the fourth miscut. I knew that Reynolds had to be either to the left of Landis or to the right of the Senators Rookie Stars for the puzzle to fit, thank goodness I found the Tribe Hill Aces miscut from Elberson that shows Reynolds is to the right of Tribe Hill Aces which then puts Reynolds to the left of Landis to complete the row.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Thanks for this thread, gentlemen. I'm not currently collecting '67, but I very much enjoy this topic. I love this type of collecting and, as I get older, I prefer this type of collecting more and more. I used to think collecting wasn't much more than racking up one star card after another. Now, I see that stuff like this is where the collecting fun is for me.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Landis is to the left of Martinez per the first miscut, Martinez is to the left of Mazeroski per the second miscut, Mazeroski is to the left of Bowens per the third miscut, Bowens is the left of Senators Rookie Stars per the fourth miscut. I knew that Reynolds had to be either to the left of Landis or to the right of the Senators Rookie Stars for the puzzle to fit, thank goodness I found the Tribe Hill Aces miscut from Elberson that shows Reynolds is to the right of Tribe Hill Aces which then puts Reynolds to the left of Landis to complete the row.

Ah...I didn't see the Landis miscut when reviewing this thread. Also, thank you for clearing up the Horton/Petrocelli issue.

[deweyinthehall]

OK - having reviewed this thread from start to finish and with the great detective work of so many contributing, here is what I believe we now have determined with regard to the 1967 Topps 6th series.

What follows is only a discussion of cards' placement within rows - nothing here about row placement on each slit. To get there we really need more data on the rows themselves (though we have some limited information due to top/bottom miscuts).

I am going to try to upload an image of what we have so far. If I have missed anything - PLEASE correct me.

First, along the top most row in the image, we have 7 groupings of 2 or 3 cards which we know were located side by side, but not in which row, nor in which slot (1-11) in what row. They are:
Killebrew/Tolan, Houk/Werhas, King/Campaneris/Gabrielson, Twins Rookies/Cloninger, Orioles Rookies/O'Toole, Lachemann/Giants Team and Dodgers Team/McFarlane.

Next, there seem to be 9 single cards for which we know nothing - nothing about the cards on any sides, not what rows, and certainly not in what slot (1-11) within any row:
Helms, Burgess, Barton, Indians Rookies, Lopez, Shaw, Griffith, Alou, Stephenson, Adair and Pirates Team

Next, we have all or part of 5 distinct rows (we know these are all different because of the overlap of the #3 card throughout) -
1) the complete row of Bird Bombers/Fisher/Menke/Hicks/Talbot/Hunt/Thomas/Marichal/Merritt/Santiago/Palmer;
2) Coombs/Rigney/Wert/McCovey in the 3-6 slots
3) Peterson/Wagner in the 2-3 slots
4) Mantilla/Alvis/Davidson/Hill Aces/Reynolds/Landis/Martinez/Mazeroski/Bowens/Senators Rookies in the 1-10 slots
5) Durocher/Arrigo in the 3-4 slots.

Finally, we have a series of single cards or pairs for which we know their slots, but not which rows - this does not suggest that Zimmerman/Dierker, for example, are in the 7th Series Checklist row, only that on some row, 7th Series Checklist/Wine are in the 1-2 slots and that on some other row (maybe the same row but we don't know) Zimmerman/Dierker are in the 7-8 slots and the Tigers Rookies is in the 11th slot. Similarly, Bell is not necessarily in the same row as Humpnhreys/Schoendienst - all we know for sure is Bell is in the 1 slot on some row, and Humphreys/Schoendienst are in the 9-10 slots on some row (possible the same row, but no way to know at this time.)

This is my attempt to do tribute to the work of others here in this forum so again - PLEASE point out where I've erred.

[Kevvyg1026]

Actually, this is what Cliff & I currently believe the layout looks like. This is not confirmed yet, so it is subject to possible change. However, it explains the miscuts we have, the wrong backs, the top of slit cuts, etc. There are still 18 cards pending placement.

1967 6th series_possible_layout.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Actually, this is what Cliff & I currently believe the layout looks like. This is not confirmed yet, so it is subject to possible change. However, it explains the miscuts we have, the wrong backs, the top of slit cuts, etc. There are still 18 cards pending placement.

Attachment 547369

Awesome!! I think it's safe to place Felipe Alou in the 7 slot of the Bell row and Indians Rookie Stars in the 10 slot of the Bell row, they are the two cards remaining that are available in much larger quantities than the other remaining cards on eBay, COMC, Dean's, and the card under Santiago must be a non regular player card, i.e. a 'special' card.

[deweyinthehall]

The card under Santiago has to be Schoendienst - we know he occupies an 11 slot like Santiago, and there are no other "specials" for which we don't know the slot placement - Bird Belters, Hill Aces, Rigney and Durocher are all accounted for.

And I noticed I placed Durocher/Arrigo in the 3/4 slots and not the 4/5 slots where they belong.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

The card under Santiago has to be Schoendienst - we know he occupies an 11 slot like Santiago, and there are no other "specials" for which we don't know the slot placement - Bird Belters, Hill Aces, Rigney and Durocher are all accounted for.

And I noticed I placed Durocher/Arrigo in the 3/4 slots and not the 4/5 slots where they belong.

Santiago is UNDER Schoendienst.

[deweyinthehall]

I was referring to the image posted earlier - I think what we know is that between the two slits, there is at least one instance of the row with Santiago being above the row with Shoendienst, and at least one instance of the row with Santiago being below Schoendienst. We know this because the Schoendienst card is the only special card that can be in slot 11.

[Kevvyg1026]

Santiago is in C10, and there is a rookie card, 499, available to place in the slot below Santiago. Cliff and I suspect that is what is below.

[deweyinthehall]

Sorry - meant slot 10. Not sure that can be a rookie card - they do have the black curve in the upper left, but then a pencil thin black line border - like the lines surrounding the stat lines. This certainly has the appearance of the thicker "special" and manager cards.

[Kevvyg1026]

Well, there is is still the pirates team card, 492, available as well.

[deweyinthehall]

If we're still talking about the card potentially underneath the Santiago, then it probably isn't a team card - those are squared off at the top, and the corner that you'd see if it was a team card would reveal some white.

[Kevvyg1026]

This is an image of the Santiago miscut I have seen. I have cut and pasted the top of a rookie stars card as well as a manager card as comparison pieces. I apologize for my inexperience in these matters, but it still isn't clear to me why a manager card must be under Santiago. Although it might be glare at the left side of the Santiago image, there might be a gliimer of white showing, which isn't on a manager card.

Is there another MC which shows additional info?

1967_473_mgr.jpg

[bb66]

Those slit layouts sure are looking good. You guys are getting really close. Sure appreciate it. It explains a lot of questions I've had on the SP's.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by bb66

Those slit layouts sure are looking good. You guys are getting really close. Sure appreciate it. It explains a lot of questions I've had on the SP's.

If we could figure out what this is to the right of Werhas we could place ten more cards. It is a 'special' card and not a regular player card. I THINK it is Orioles Rookie Stars but unfortunately it can still also be the Pirates Team card.