HOF Early Baseball Era Ballots are out

[mrreality68]

Hi Everyone

Here is the list of the 10 ball players on the ballot for the Early Baseball Era Ballots (pre 1950)
Any thoughts
Who get's in?
Any Cards we can share?

John Donaldson
Bud Fowler
Vic Harris
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
Buck O’Neil
Dick “Cannonball” Redding
George “Tubby” Scales
Bill Dahlen
Lefty O’Doul
Allie Reynolds

[Eric72]

I think this guy finally gets in...

[Scocs]

I thought there’s a separate Negro League committee that’s meeting in December to examine the lists last looked at in 2006. Where are the names of Dick Lundy, Oliver Marcelle, Dobie Moore, Alejandro Oms, etc on the above list?!

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Hi Everyone

Here is the list of the 10 ball players on the ballot for the Early Baseball Era Ballots (pre 1950)
Any thoughts
Who get's in?
Any Cards we can share?

John Donaldson
Bud Fowler
Vic Harris
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
Buck O’Neil
Dick “Cannonball” Redding
George “Tubby” Scales
Bill Dahlen
Lefty O’Doul
Allie Reynolds

Many worthy candidates, but Lefty O'Doul must be among the most deserving. Sure, he only had six or seven full MLB seasons under his belt, but he was an amazing hitter. With his contributions to Japanese baseball and his long career in the PCL, his total contribution to the game of baseball far outweighs many others who are already in the Hall. Oh, and .349/.413/.532

[jingram058]

Some VERY deserving names not on the ballet, IMO. Kind of like the Rock & Roll HOF, I have lost interest anymore. I would hope Dahlen, O'Neil, O'Doul and Reynolds finally get in, but, realistically, after some of the discussions in the not too distant past around here about who ought to be in, I won't hold my breath in anticipation.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Scocs

I thought there’s a separate Negro League committee that’s meeting in December to examine the lists last looked at in 2006. Where are the names of Dick Lundy, Oliver Marcelle, Dobie Moore, Alejandro Oms, etc on the above list?!

I think now that the Negro Leagues are considered major leagues, there is no longer a separate committee and the candidates have been blended in with the existing era committees. If anything, this list actually leans heavily towards Negro League candidates.

There can only be 10 candidates for each committee so there are going to be many, many candidates left off of the pre-1950 committee list that many of us would have liked to see nominated. It basically covers four eras in my opinion: the pioneer era, 19th century professional leagues, the dead ball era, and the live ball era pre-integration. The next committee by time period covers only 20 years (1950-1969) but will also have 10 candidates. I think at this point anyone hoping for people like Doc Adams, Creighton, Barnes, Browning, Caruthers, Glasscock, Jim McCormick, Magee, etc. to ever get in is out of luck unless the HOF creates committees more focused on a specific era.

Not arguing about this list in particular....just that limiting it to ten for about 100 years of baseball means many worthy candidates will not be included.

[John1941]

I'm not an expert on the Negro Leagues, but John Donaldson seems like he should be in. Lefty O'Doul too.

[mannybb24]

Originally Posted by Scocs

I thought there’s a separate Negro League committee that’s meeting in December to examine the lists last looked at in 2006. Where are the names of Dick Lundy, Oliver Marcelle, Dobie Moore, Alejandro Oms, etc on the above list?!

They narrowed the list down to seven this year Scott, it's a shame they will only do this every ten years, the guys you mentioned especially Lundy and Moore are definitely Hall worthy.
Out of the 10 on the ballot only 4 will make it, I'd say there's a huge push for Buck and Donaldson so you'll probably at least hear their names called on December 5th.

[Scocs]

Steve,

Yeah, that was just the sound of me vomiting.

Say what you want but IMHO Dick Lundy > Andy Cooper and the earliest he can possibly be inducted is 2032?! WTF.

Scott

[mainemule]

I am much more familiar with the Golden Era group- from the HOF's web-site:

The Golden Days Era ballot includes Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Roger Maris, Minnie Miñoso, Danny Murtaugh, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce and Maury Wills.

I like Boyer as a sleeper as he has both offensive and defensive metrics. Is this finally Hodges time? Minoso and Oliva seem to have similar profiles. Allen has been much talked about since his passing. Kaat is interesting as he had 250 or so wins through age 38/39 and has 16 GGs ( i know as a pitcher but that's just impressive). Don't see Maris, Murtaugh, Pierce or Wills getting in over the other names.

[mannybb24]

I hear you Scott, quite a few guys should have been in long time ago and way before Cooper.

Good thing I don’t collect guys that only make the HOF, not to keep knocking on Cooper but nothing makes me laugh more when collectors are shelling out thousands for his cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

O'Neil's stats, such as they are, show a .258 hitter with no power. Was he in fact better than that as a player, or is his stature more a reflection of his being a beloved figure and contributor to the game?

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

O'Neil's stats, such as they are, show a .258 hitter with no power. Was he in fact better than that as a player, or is his stature more a reflection of his being a beloved figure and contributor to the game?

Agreed. Buck was the first to admit that he was an average ballplayer. I think he should be in for this contributions as a scout, and especially as an ambassador for the game and as someone who brought additional recognition to the Negro Leagues. If Selig can get elected, then Buck sure as hell deserves to be in there.

[mannybb24]

Buck goes in as a contributor and the voice of Negro League baseball.
He should’ve went in back in 2006 when 17 other players and executives went in and when he was alive.

I think what the Donaldson Network, particularly the founder Peter Gorton has done for John Donaldson and his legacy is tremendous. With help from hundreds across the country they have been able to piece Donaldson’s storied career back together and bring it to the forefront.
I think this is his year to get in and rightfully so.

Dick Redding has been overlooked for years, he’s one of the best pitchers black or white of his era.

Would’ve liked to seen Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore (please don’t argue with me about how many years he played, count the wrecker years and he’s one of the best all-around players of any era) and John Beckwith make the list but I guess their time will come at a later date.

[perezfan]

Was really hoping to see Dummy Hoy's name on that list. Hoping O'Doul and Dahlen finally make it in.

[peanuts]

I think it's safe to say that Buck will get in this time. There's been quite a bit of steam behind his campaign for years now. Given the added focus on the Negro Leagues that's happened this past year, I think the voters will be ready to enshrine him.

Dahlen is a toss-up, but will probably get in.

Lefty O'Doul is a very likely, but still room for being passed over. It will really come down to how much the voters value his contributions to spreading the game through Japan and how much credence they give to his PCL career.

[GaryPassamonte]

The overview committee was tasked with an impossible task, since the early era category covers such a long period of time. It is ludicrous that there are not multiple era committees from this pre -1950 time frame. My worst fears have materialized with this 10 player ballot. 19th century players have been basically omitted from the ballot. Dahlen is really a 19th-20th century crossover player. I am happy that the Negro leagues/players are now considered major league. I am not happy that 7 Negro league players are on a 10 candidate ballot ( I realize Fowler was pre Negro leagues). This is not meant as a racist statement because that's not what it is. It is just historically wrong to deemphasize 19th century players. Negro league players were elected in a special election in 2006. 19th century players have never had that consideration. I just feel that the space that was held by 19th century players is being filled by Negro league players now. Again, I'm all in favor of recognizing Negro league players, but not at the expense of 19th century players. Unfortunately, interest in the players of 19th century baseball is small at this point, and there is no movement to change that. They're just not in vogue today. One final point. Leaving Doc Adams off the ballot is like leaving George Washington off a list of American presidents. And Allie Reynolds? Wow!

[paul]

I know Buck O'Neil and George Scales have a few cards. Do any of the other Negro League candidates?

[z28jd]

Dahlen is credited with 75.2 WAR. If a shortstop in New York did that today, he would be a first ballot Hall of Famer without question and people would complain if he didn't get all of the votes. Don't think so? Just ask Derek Jeter and his 71.9 WAR and 99.7% vote total. The focus was the one person who didn't vote for him, yet people are okay with a better player who retired 110 years ago not being in at all? Insane.

If Dahlen doesn't get in, the system is broken*

*It's broken already because this ballot is awful and it's not scheduled to meet for ten more years!

[ejharrington]

I support Buck O'Neill, more as a pioneer than as a player.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What's the composition of the committee that will be voting?

[ClementeFanOh]

Bad Bill Dahlen, all the way!- Trent King

[Brian Van Horn]

Along with 1954 Globe Printing Blossom Dairy cards from the estate of Bill Pope as well as an album with a 1994 reunion of Negro League players (same estate), this is my favorite Negro League item. It was wonderful to shake hands with O'Neil. His is also a rare autograph I have outside of Manny Sanguillen and J Bob "Battleship" Kelly (NHL). Oh, yes. I am in Pittsburgh, on the NHL side I have Lemieux's signature and I refuse to attend Pirate games because of Nutting.

[kmac32]

With everything Buck O’Neal did for baseball, he is a clear no brained to get in.

[timn1]

I wonder if the folks who want to see Lefty inducted are prepared for the hundreds of players who would have to follow logically from it.

We could start with Josh Hamilton whose career is super similar. Check out the counting stats. Lefty had about four really nice years playing in the best hitters park in baseball history in the best hitters era in baseball history. He won two batting titles. Hamilton had a few great years in a less favorable hitters era and won a batting title and an rbi title. Plus an MVP.


Jeff Burroughs will have to be next.... sorry but I think Lefty would be a travesty.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Dahlen is credited with 75.2 WAR. If a shortstop in New York did that today, he would be a first ballot Hall of Famer without question and people would complain if he didn't get all of the votes. Don't think so? Just ask Derek Jeter and his 71.9 WAR and 99.7% vote total. The focus was the one person who didn't vote for him, yet people are okay with a better player who retired 110 years ago not being in at all?

Amen to that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Andres Gallaraga!!

O Doul basically had three amazing years. I leave it to others whether to consider his achievements in Japan and in the PCL, but on the basis of his MLB record, no.

[FrankWakefield]

It would never happen, but a Fix the Hall Committee would be good, they could meet every 10 years and vote a few out of the Hall. I'd start with voting Kirby Puckett out.

I'm actually an O'Doul fan, but I'd be ok if he didn't get in. Ditto for Dahlen.

I'm a Cardinals fan for the last 59 years, I saw Boyer play in 1963 and after. He was a stable rock for the Cards, Played well in Center Field and at Third Base. Good with hit and run; but they didn't often try that because he had some power and was a solid RBI guy... And with all of that said, in my estimation he shouldn't get in.

Jim Kaat should get in.

Josh Hamilton should get in 363 days a year (I think the Hall is closed 2 days a year), after he's paid admission; he shouldn't get inducted. Ever.

If it were up to me, Kaat gets in and the rest stay out. If they keep adding and adding players then it gradually becomes the Hall of above average baseball players. It'll be a bigass building.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

It would never happen, but a Fix the Hall Committee would be good, they could meet every 10 years and vote a few out of the Hall. I'd start with voting Kirby Puckett out.

I'm actually an O'Doul fan, but I'd be ok if he didn't get in. Ditto for Dahlen.

I'm a Cardinals fan for the last 59 years, I saw Boyer play in 1963 and after. He was a stable rock for the Cards, Played well in Center Field and at Third Base. Good with hit and run; but they didn't often try that because he had some power and was a solid RBI guy... And with all of that said, in my estimation he shouldn't get in.

Jim Kaat should get in.

Josh Hamilton should get in 363 days a year (I think the Hall is closed 2 days a year), after he's paid admission; he shouldn't get inducted. Ever.

If it were up to me, Kaat gets in and the rest stay out. If they keep adding and adding players then it gradually becomes the Hall of above average baseball players. It'll be a bigass building.

And the farther down the list you go, the harder it becomes to justify saying no, IMO. If Kaat is in, why not Tommy John, very similar career? Why not Tiant, at his peak better than either of them? If Dick Allen is in, why not Albert Belle, why not Dale Murphy?

[BeanTown]

All good options but if I had to vote for one name on the list, it would be for Lefty.

[shagrotn77]

I think O'Neil (as a contributor) and Dahlen are the best bets from the Early Era ballot. Donaldson and O'Doul would figure to have good chances as well. I'd be shocked if at least 2 Negro Leaguers weren't picked. I'm surprised Harry Stovey wasn't a finalist again as he came close last time around. Alejandro Oms was another surprising omission.

As for the Golden Days ballot, I think Minoso is a lock and Dick Allen and Tony Oliva have great shots as well. Hodges and Boyer haven't come close to election for a long time, but maybe this is their year. Kaat just strikes me as a player who will forever be nominated, but not enshrined.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Hi Everyone

Here is the list of the 10 ball players on the ballot for the Early Baseball Era Ballots (pre 1950)
Any thoughts
Who get's in?
Any Cards we can share?

John Donaldson
Bud Fowler
Vic Harris
Grant “Home Run” Johnson
Buck O’Neil
Dick “Cannonball” Redding
George “Tubby” Scales
Bill Dahlen
Lefty O’Doul
Allie Reynolds

Only Buck O’Neal, it’s getting water downed.

[Exhibitman]

Lefty!



Minnie!

[paul]

Well, I did a little internet research myself to see who besides O'Neil and Scales has cards. The answer seems to be just Vic Harris, who has two different cards in the 1949-50 Toleteros set. I would love to see any cards of O'Neil, Scales, or Harris. After all, this is a baseball card forum.

[rhettyeakley]

I'd love for Lefty to finally get into the HOF

[mrreality68]

They are all worth but at the least
1. I am hoping for Buck O'Niel and John Donaldson
2. Would hope they go 5 years not 10 years for the next round of votes.

[shagrotn77]

The Vic Harris Toleteros card is from his managerial days, but he does have at least one issue as a player - a 1930-34 Harrison Studio Postcard. Tubby Scales has one, too. Can’t say that I know much about these, but I'd imagine that they're probably incredibly rare.

[Seven]

Would love to see Buck O'Neil finally get his due. It was a shame he could never get in when he was alive, despite doing so much for the Negro League players.

From the other section of the Ballot, I think Minnie, Kaat and Hodges should all make the bill.

I struggle with the sort of thing, my mind says Small Hall, my heart says Big Hall.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Seven

Would love to see Buck O'Neil finally get his due. It was a shame he could never get in when he was alive, despite doing so much for the Negro League players.

From the other section of the Ballot, I think Minnie, Kaat and Hodges should all make the bill.

I struggle with the sort of thing, my mind says Small Hall, my heart says Big Hall.

Regarding the size of the hall. To me it should be as big or small as necessary for all the deserving people to be in.
And to me there should be no long periods between committee voting and there should be no size limit for these committees. To me it should be to get it as right as possible.

[cardinalcollector]

I was fortunate enough to get Buck O'Neills autograph at the St. Louis National (#16) in 1995.

[oldjudge]

I agree with Gary that it is a shame that there are no solely 19th century players on the list. There are several players and pioneers from that period who are more deserving than some of the “feel good” candidates on this list. I think no one from this list should get in. The talent level at the HOF is diluted enough already.

[bgar3]

Also agree with Gary and Jay, especially for Doc Adams.

[scotgreb]

The two "locks" in my mind for the 2022 were both omitted from their respective ballots: Doc Adams and Tommy John. What the hell do I know? Scott

[jingram058]

Harold $%#@ing Baines?

Give me a $%#@ing break.

It's the Hall of Lost It's Relevance.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Harold $%#@ing Baines?

Give me a $%#@ing break.

It's the Hall of Lost It's Relevance.

Agreed on Baines

But obviously we all care since we are spending time on this thread

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Agreed on Baines

But obviously we all care since we are spending time on this thread

It is a great thread! If they would just put Gil Hodges in, I could live with everything else.

[Topnotchsy]

I believe that Buck O'Neil and Lefty O'Doul should be in for their contributions to the game. O'Neil was the greatest ambassador and spokesman for the Negro Leagues. O'Doul had a stellar (albeit short) career and was incredibly influential in bringing baseball to Japan. He was also a manager in the PCL etc.

On the Negro League side, I think Vic Harris getting in as the winningest manager in Negro League history should be a slam dunk.

Dick Redding is widely regarded as one of the most glaring omissions, and I believe he warrants entry as well.

I'm not familiar enough with the rest of the players to really have a strong feeling either way.

Unfortunately, the way the voting is structured, a limited number of players for the group can make it.

Given that these players are only on the ballot once in 10 years, I feel that this is a poor system

[Scocs]

Given that these players are only on the ballot once in 10 years, I feel that this is a poor system

The truest thing that’s been said on this thread…

[egri]

Originally Posted by Scocs

Given that these players are only on the ballot once in 10 years, I feel that this is a poor system

The truest thing that’s been said on this thread…

We should instead give the task to the BBWAN54 (Baseball Writers Association of Net54).

[tazdmb]

Now that the Negro League is being considered a major league, you need to consider that Vic Harris won 8 pennants (4th most all time, behind McGraw, Mack and Casey) and has .681 winning percentage (highest all time for more than managing 500 games). How can anyone say he is not a Hall of Famer?!

As for O’Doul, put him in the Japan HOF and PCL HOF (actually, he is probably in both), but not in the Baseball Hall of Fame.