Future of the National – South and West Locations

[parkplace33]

The National schedule is between Chicago and AC the next years. I was recently talking to a few dealers about the National being in another location in the future (South, West). I was told that is not happening per the National Board members 

Any reason why? I would think having a National in either Florida, Texas, Nevada or California would be beneficial and expand the growth of the show.

Let’s take for example Las Vegas:

- Allows collectors on the West Coast to attend.
- Plenty of hotels, parking, convention center, and close to a major airport.
- Brings in big money on a daily basis.

What do you think?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

The National schedule is between Chicago and AC the next years. I was recently talking to a few dealers about the National being in another location in the future (South, West). I was told that is not happening per the National Board members 

Any reason why? I would think having a National in either Florida, Texas, Nevada or California would be beneficial and expand the growth of the show.

Let’s take for example Las Vegas:

- Allows collectors on the West Coast to attend.
- Plenty of hotels, parking, convention center, and close to a major airport.
- Brings in big money on a daily basis.

What do you think?

Oh my! Non-Fungible Black jack.

Count me in.

[Johnny630]

I would love to see that happen In the future after they’re already scheduled locations as planned due to contract obligations. In the future I would love to see a few more locations along with Chicago, Las Vegas, Dallas, and maybe the Philly Area.

[ocjack]

Seems like this has become a routine subject for discussion. Maybe that means we can have a ground-swell of activism for the movement of the show. And I still wonder if East Coast dealers are basically telling the Committee that they won't travel across the country. So that, combined with any other financial interests they may have, dictates the current location rotation.

Previous discussion: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=national

[theuclakid]

yes this is somewhat dictated by the fact most National dealers are from the mid west and east...the expenses to travel to the west are more... secondly the venue has to be large enough and that eliminates a lot of potential areas I have been told...thirdly the time around the end of July and early August has to be available for a venue as that is when the NSCC people like to run it, also the "deal" the NSCC people get from certain venues to host it is important to them (they can make more money) especially like Atlantic City....also the NSCC have to be willing to commit to years in advance to a certain location to get considered...like Baltimore Inner harbor which was a great spot....the NSCC hasn't been willing to do that so that venue has not been feasible since 2012...Baltimore Inner harbor is a popular convention spot

I am from the west coast but the national hasn't returned here since 2006

Bruce Perry

National dealer

[rhettyeakley]

In the past it has always been the East Coast (& to a lesser extent the Midwest) dealers telling the Committee that they weren’t willing to travel west. That has always I feel been enough to persuade the committee that they shouldn’t because they didn’t want to have an empty convention hall. With the current popularity of sports cards/collectibles that doesn’t really feel like a valid enough reason anymore. There are literal waiting lists for booths at these shows.

It is incredibly short sighted by the committee to continue short-changing the non East Coast/Midwest collectors & dealers.

Being in Idaho I know I am going to have to travel far for any show, it is something that comes with the territory. The East/Midwest guys have never felt the need to conform to a traveling venue, nor do they feel like they should ever have to. They have always had the show in their backyard but I guarantee they would travel every few years if they were to do a Vegas/West coast show every 3rd year or something.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

yes this is somewhat dictated by the fact most National dealers are from the mid west and east...the expenses to travel to the west are more... secondly the venue has to be large enough and that eliminates a lot of potential areas I have been told...thirdly the time around the end of July and early August has to be available for a venue as that is when the NSCC people like to run it, also the "deal" the NSCC people get from certain venues to host it is important to them (they can make more money) especially like Atlantic City....also the NSCC have to be willing to commit to years in advance to a certain location to get considered...like Baltimore Inner harbor which was a great spot....the NSCC hasn't been willing to do that so that venue has not been feasible since 2012...Baltimore Inner harbor is a popular convention spot

I am from the west coast but the national hasn't returned here since 2006

Bruce Perry

National dealer

And some places ask the NSCC to guarantee an insane amount of hotel rooms. Trust me, it's not as easy as we would prefer

This thread is now a dozen years old and some of the posters, including Mike Berkus, are no longer with us but the themes are well the same

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ht=Mike+Berkus

[BobC]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

The National schedule is between Chicago and AC the next years. I was recently talking to a few dealers about the National being in another location in the future (South, West). I was told that is not happening per the National Board members 

Any reason why? I would think having a National in either Florida, Texas, Nevada or California would be beneficial and expand the growth of the show.

Let’s take for example Las Vegas:

- Allows collectors on the West Coast to attend.
- Plenty of hotels, parking, convention center, and close to a major airport.
- Brings in big money on a daily basis.

What do you think?

Don't be surprised if Cleveland gets back in the mix in a few years.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

In the past it has always been the East Coast (& to a lesser extent the Midwest) dealers telling the Committee that they weren’t willing to travel west. That has always I feel been enough to persuade the committee that they shouldn’t because they didn’t want to have an empty convention hall. With the current popularity of sports cards/collectibles that doesn’t really feel like a valid enough reason anymore. There are literal waiting lists for booths at these shows.

It is incredibly short sighted by the committee to continue short-changing the non East Coast/Midwest collectors & dealers.

Being in Idaho I know I am going to have to travel far for any show, it is something that comes with the territory. The East/Midwest guys have never felt the need to conform to a traveling venue, nor do they feel like they should ever have to. They have always had the show in their backyard but I guarantee they would travel every few years if they were to do a Vegas/West coast show every 3rd year or something.

Exactly because they know they would make a S Ton of money in Las Vegas. If the Money is there to be made there is no way in hell they, the dealers would miss it. I’m not saying get rid of AC or Chicago how about throw a Las Vegas in Every 3-5 years.

[ValKehl]

I am very surprised that some ambitious, forward-thinking, sports-card show promoter hasn't started an annual "Western National Sports Collectors Show" long before now, held each winter (February would be ideal, IMHO). I have been to a National at Anaheim, and based on that experience, I have little doubt that a show promoter would be able to fill a huge venue with dealers, including most of the major dealers from the East Coast, especially if said promoter set low table fees for the first year or two with the goal of merely breaking even until the show becomes fully established.

[Sportsnutcards]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Exactly because they know they would make a S Ton of money in Las Vegas. If the Money is there to be made there is no way in hell they, the dealers would miss it. I’m not saying get rid of AC or Chicago how about throw a Las Vegas in Every 3-5 years.

I actually think the National would be a major flop in Vegas. Vegas is great for tradeshows, not so much for consumer shows. I am not a big fan of it being in Atlantic city, but at least it is drivable from 3 Major Metro areas.

[mr2686]

Las Vegas has a yearly Industry Summit and a (so far) 200 table show to go with it (their goal is at least 400 tables). I suspect that we collectors out West will have to settle for that and help it grow until it's our own West Coast National.

[parkplace33]

Lots of great responses here. I hope the board will be more forward leaning and look for more venues in the future.

Another question I have is why AC continues to be in the mix. It isn’t a destination spot and is 2 hours away from a major airport.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I am very surprised that some ambitious, forward-thinking, sports-card show promoter hasn't started an annual "Western National Sports Collectors Show" long before now, held each winter (February would be ideal, IMHO). I have been to a National at Anaheim, and based on that experience, I have little doubt that a show promoter would be able to fill a huge venue with dealers, including most of the major dealers from the East Coast, especially if said promoter set low table fees for the first year or two with the goal of merely breaking even until the show becomes fully established.

I agree. It appears that the folks who run the show think the venues in the current rotation are the most profitable and least risky options for them. It's their decision because it's their investment on the line. And I have no problem at all with that. If a market isn't being served, then I think you'll just have to wait for someone else to recognize that and start a new show.

[KCRfan1]

If the goal is to get foot traffic ( hence consumers ) thru the door, the show has to be in the eastern part of the country.

This is where the population base is. A venue in Cleveland, drawing an 800 mile radius, has access to tens of millions of people. AC is the same, as is Chicago although a lesser extent.

This is a distance that can be driven in a day.

Vegas, unless you live in LA, you are flying, not to mention a much more limited population to draw from with the same 800 mile radius.

I live in South County and would love a national, however if I were involved in the decision making process there is no way I go west with the show.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Oh my! Non-Fungible Black jack.

Count me in.

…and here I thought NFBJ was something else the whole time.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

If the goal is to get foot traffic ( hence consumers ) thru the door, the show has to be in the eastern part of the country.

This is where the population base is. A venue in Cleveland, drawing an 800 mile radius, has access to tens of millions of people. AC is the same, as is Chicago although a lesser extent.

This is a distance that can be driven in a day.

Vegas, unless you live in LA, you are flying, not to mention a much more limited population to draw from with the same 800 mile radius.

I live in South County and would love a national, however if I were involved in the decision making process there is no way I go west with the show.

55,000,000 people live within 500 miles of Vegas.
50,000,000 live within 500 miles of Dallas (about the same for L.A.)
**For comparison Chicago has 85,000,000 that live within 500 miles**

We aren't talking about moving it there every year, just throwing a bone to those populations that aren't served by the same venues year after year.

[perezfan]

Unless they throw a bone to somewhere west of the Mississippi, they should just rename it "The Regional".

[KCRfan1]

I agree Rhett.

I would love a National here.

I have never been to one and probably never will living in OC. Now if I go, I pay airfare and hotel rooms. That's a grand already. A west coast show is only driving.....gas maybe a hotel room, that leaves so much more money I can spend on cards to support the venue. If it is LA or SD, only gas money.

My guess, and that is all it is, is that many east coast dealers will decline a trip west due to expense, travel time, and more burdensome to transport items to sell.

The show likely becomes a west coast dealer venue, and a smaller venue at that.

From a business standpoint, I don't see it happening.

But I would absolutely love it if it did! I would love a bone tossed to SoCal even if it were as you suggested, every 3 or 5 years.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

55,000,000 people live within 500 miles of Vegas.
50,000,000 live within 500 miles of Dallas (about the same for L.A.)
**For comparison Chicago has 85,000,000 that live within 500 miles**

We aren't talking about moving it there every year, just throwing a bone to those populations that aren't served by the same venues year after year.

How many people are within 100 miles or 200 miles? Only serious collectors are going to travel 500 miles for a show and it is going to take extra days of travel plus extra hotel costs. A lot of traffic comes from those who can make it a day trip. I am ok with LA or Dallas, but Las Vegas makes no sense.

With the recent growth of the hobby the National should look at expanding the number of venues it visits. That is how it was when the hobby was growing in the 80s. The show should be profitable now no matter the distance traveled.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

55,000,000 people live within 500 miles of Vegas.
50,000,000 live within 500 miles of Dallas (about the same for L.A.)
**For comparison Chicago has 85,000,000 that live within 500 miles**

We aren't talking about moving it there every year, just throwing a bone to those populations that aren't served by the same venues year after year.

Continuing on . . .

Atlantic City has 94,000,000 people within 500 miles

Cleveland has 130,000,000 people within 500 miles


Other considerations aside, the National location population numbers speak for themselves.

"If you build it they will come." Maybe.

But if you build it where they are, well, they're already there.

What successful business would say "Hey, let's forgo one of our current locations for one that has less than two thirds of the population?

[Exhibitman]

Population within x miles is irrelevant. I have had to plane travel to every National since 2006. Whether I am flying 500 miles or 3000 is basically the same. What counts is number of direct flights and difficulty of ground transport in and out once I land. Chicago is easy. New York is easy. Cleveland has only a few direct flights from LA but is easy once on the ground. Baltimore was great because I could visit NY first then take a very pleasant train ride. AC is quite difficult no matter what airport I use. Last I checked the only airline that went to AC is Spirit and I had to get to Detroit to catch that flight. No ready train access either. The choice is basically Philadelphia then drive an hour.

We've had this discussion before and have always heard the same excuses. The reality is that the people who run the show live on the proceeds and will only go where they can get the venue for nothing, or next to nothing, and where the downside risk of hotel reservation counts is minimal.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Population within x miles is irrelevant. I have had to plane travel to every National since 2006. Whether I am flying 500 miles or 3000 is basically the same. What counts is number of direct flights and difficulty of ground transport in and out once I land. Chicago is easy. New York is easy. Cleveland has only a few direct flights from LA but is easy once on the ground. Baltimore was great because I could visit NY first then take a very pleasant train ride. AC is quite difficult no matter what airport I use. Last I checked the only airline that went to AC is Spirit and I had to get to Detroit to catch that flight. No ready train access either. The choice is basically Philadelphia then drive an hour.

We've had this discussion before and have always heard the same excuses. The reality is that the people who run the show live on the proceeds and will only go where they can get the venue for nothing, or next to nothing, and where the downside risk of hotel reservation counts is minimal.

Your last statement is 100% the reality of the situation. I’d like to see a few new venues maybe one for the foreseeable future Chicago and AC look like the reality of it.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Your last statement is 100% the reality of the situation. I’d like to see a few new venues maybe one for the foreseeable future Chicago and AC look like the reality of it.

Don't get me wrong; i am perfectly happy to go to Chicago every year. It's an easy and enjoyable trip for me with lots of air possibilities, and good accommodations and food. If the National was a Chicago every year event, fine. Comicon is always in San Diego, which has to be a PITA for northeastern travelers. But I notice that Comicon has started up regional shows too. Maybe the National organizers could consider that model? I went to some hellacious good regional shows in the 1980s and 1990s with 500+ tables and 3-4 days of show. There was a 500+ table show at the Moscone Center in SF every year I was in law school up there and I usually ditched classes the first day to go. I remember one year I was able to literally walk up to get autographs and chat with Stan Musial, Bob Gibson and Lou Brock because traffic was relatively light at mid-day. Still have the Musial (and we need a card):

[Rhotchkiss]

I live in DC. I would not fly to Vegas or out west for a card show; in fact, I haven’t yet attended the show in Chicago. But I do go to almost every Philly and Chantilly show and I usually don’t miss Nationals in Cleveland and Atlantic City. I fly all the time for work and pleasure, yet I really have no interest flying for a card show. I sincerely hope you west coast people get a National, or a similar show, and if you do, send some pics bc I will not be attending.

[Yoda]

Given that I live in the state, I am no doubt biased but I wonder if serious thought has ever been given to Orlando as a S/E location for the National. To me, it has many advantages; easy access, very consumer friendly, tons of hotels and restaurants, large populations centers in close proximity, eg. Atlanta, Tampa, Jacksonville, Mobile etc. and, of course, let's not forget Mickey and Minnie Mouse.

[mrreality68]

Hi

I agree I do not believe I would travel to far for a Nationals.

I would not mind the "NATIONALS" rotating around the country.

Not sure how many I would attend if not on the east coast but it would be good for it to rotate.

As someone mentioned early it would only make sense in locations that can support a strong local base of people to attend. Due to the financials related to it.

Would love to see bigger Regional Shows.

[theuclakid]

I was told because it costs the NSCC organization very little to use that venue, more profit for them

Bruce Perry

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The reality is that the people who run the show live on the proceeds and will only go where they can get the venue for nothing, or next to nothing, and where the downside risk of hotel reservation counts is minimal.

Agreed. There's no incentive for them to move it around more than it does, so why would they? The amount of work to find a new venue and sort the logistics out it is astronomical. Why do all that leg work for no extra payoff? It's not like a new city is going to bring in more people, it's just going to bring different people. While that may be "good for the hobby", it's not for the bottom line, which is really all that matters to them.

[isiahfan]

AFAIK....They have an agreement with Rosemont for quite some time to do it there every other year. Chicago is a top city for basically everything, cheap public transportation, tons of hotels, close to many cities, two major airports, etc. That isn't going to change. They also had an agreement with Park Corp/IX Center in Cleveland for every fourth year. They sold so that changed the plans. For now the non-Chicago years will rotate. Assuming the National stays in late July/early August...you can eliminate all of Texas and probably Vegas. San Francisco and NY are just too expensive IMO so cross those out as well. Plus SF and TX already have large shows (not that Chicago doesn't). Anaheim, where they had it in 2006 pretty much checks most of the boxes, and although it was very successful, many are just against schlepping their inventory across country...adds a bit to the already exorbitant table prices. I also heard Anaheim needs a certain amount of time and assurances way ahead of time that the National just won't commit to. I would love a large show in SoCal or drivable as Kit Young isn't throwing his luau shows any more.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

I was told because it costs the NSCC organization very little to use that venue, more profit for them

Bruce Perry

That is interesting.

I just wish the Board wasn't resting on its laurels. The hobby has changed greatly in the last few years and there are collectors all over the world. I think it is time for a change.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

That is interesting.

I just wish the Board wasn't resting on its laurels. The hobby has changed greatly in the last few years and there are collectors all over the world.. I think it is time for a change.

Great! Be sure to let us all know when and where you'll be hosting the inaugural "International."

[Jewish-collector]

There are many locations/venues that can't host the National for one reason or another:

Some venues are too small and/or don't have enough hotel rooms
Some venues are not convenient to airports
Some venues/cities the union stuff too expensive and/or other legal issues
Some venues charge too much for having events in their building
Some venues/cities are not good baseball and/or sports towns
Some venues don't want it scheduled too far in the future. In other words, the venue wants the National committee to tell them practically in June or July that they want the show in their facility. But the National committee needs a few years in advance.
etc,... etc,... etc,...

After all of this analysis, it turns out Chicago and Cleveland were the only two cities that don't have any of these issues and this is why they were alternating between these two. Now with Cleveland possibly out of the picture (?), Atlantic City may or may not become a regular alternating with Chicago. We shall see.

[JollyElm]

I live out here, so a huge west coast show would be phenomenal, but you have to ask the most basic question. If a show of that magnitude would be so hugely successful (read profitable), why isn't one being planned as we speak by people not connected to The National?? And since it's California, sellers could have "Add avocado for $9.95!!" (maybe charge less for off-centered looking ones?) signs on their tables to further maximize profits.

[SteveMitchell]

Perhaps the NSCC needs a rival. The time may not be right (at the moment) but the National League got some competition from the upstart American League after a single season operating as a minor league (1900) and by 1903 it had toppled the National from its perch as the Best in Baseball. Could the AMERICAN Sports Collectors Convention repeat the A.L.'s rise to the top?

No doubt the current practice of rotating between the east coast and midwest allows the most collectors to attend but other large metro areas could certainly put on an excellent show and return the National to being truly NATIONAL.

What's this business about the Federal League? Just an attention-getter. I would actually propose the AMERICAN Sports Collectors Convention as the NSCC's 21st century rival. But at 72 I'm too old to seriously do anything about it.

[Exhibitman]

Nobody is going to take the risk on a start-up show until COVID is in the rear view mirror. I did three local one-day shows with two other collectors and it was a ton of work and we lost money every time. I am definitely interested in doing it again and trying to build something for the longer term but not with the uncertainty over public gatherings that we have right now.

[buymycards]

So, I know this will never happen, but why can't there be 2 National Conventions per year? The Rosemont is always sold out and there are 100's of dealers who would like to set up, but the "legacy" dealers (many who seem to still have the same inventory that they had in the 1990's) have all of the spots locked up.

Maybe we could see some new dealers, with fresh inventory. There are plenty of dealers from the Midwest, the South, and from the West Coast who could take the place of the dealers from the east coast who don't want to make the trip.

[Exhibitman]

That's sort of what Comicon has done with the regional shows.

[theuclakid]

Cleveland's IX center was sold to new owners and has reopened to hosting conventions....I believe this fall already....dont know if the NSCC has contacted them yet about hosting the Nationals again in the near future

I would love to see 2 or 3 large shows a year to encompass the west, midwest and east areas of the country......

there hasn't been a National convention in Texas since 1995 (Houston) or in the south at all since Atlanta in 1999

Bruce Perry

[BobC]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

Cleveland's IX center was sold to new owners and has reopened to hosting conventions....I believe this fall already....dont know if the NSCC has contacted them yet about hosting the Nationals again in the near future
Bruce Perry

The IX Center was not sold. It was, and still remains, owned by the City of Cleveland. The company that leased it from the City of Cleveland was purchased by a real estate development company that plans to continue on with the lease and to do some renovations to the structure and sublease part of it out as industrial property. The plan is to continue using the balance of the structure for shows and conventions as it had been used for leading up to the pandemic. No idea on how soon the renovations and subleasing will take place yet.

And this is why I said in an earlier post to not be surprised if the National may come back to Cleveland.

The building is huge and could have easily accomodated so many more dealers when they had the National in Cleveland. Always figured they didn't expand it more because when they had subsequent Nationals in other cities they wouldn't be able to include all the dealers they had in Cleveland. I know Rosemont is really close to O'Hare, but that doesn't hold a candle to the IX Center literally being at the end of the Hopkins Airport runway. The building is right by the junction of major north-south and east-west freeways, and has a parking lot that I don't remember ever being close to filled. The major downside is the IX Center is not surrounded by hotels, bars, and restaurants like the Stephens Center is in Chicago. But unlike Chicago, you can actually get around Cleveland easily by car, without all the ridiculous toll roads, and no serious rush hour traffic like Chicago and other cities. You can easily get downtown and have access in the area to things like the Rock and Roll HOF and even the original League Park (and museum) where the Cleveland Naps played and the first ever unofficiall all-star type game took place when they held a benefit game there for Addie Joss' widow and family. And the Canton Football HOF is only about an hour away by car as well. I know many didn't like Cleveland because you couldn't just walk everywhere, but there is still a lot to do and see if you know where you're going. Would like to see the National come back there some day.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Given that I live in the state, I am no doubt biased but I wonder if serious thought has ever been given to Orlando as a S/E location for the National. To me, it has many advantages; easy access, very consumer friendly, tons of hotels and restaurants, large populations centers in close proximity, eg. Atlanta, Tampa, Jacksonville, Mobile etc. and, of course, let's not forget Mickey and Minnie Mouse.

Orlando would be killer. 2 hour drive from Jacksonville. Good hotels and places to eat. What’s not to like!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by buymycards

So, I know this will never happen, but why can't there be 2 National Conventions per year? The Rosemont is always sold out and there are 100's of dealers who would like to set up, but the "legacy" dealers (many who seem to still have the same inventory that they had in the 1990's) have all of the spots locked up.

Maybe we could see some new dealers, with fresh inventory. There are plenty of dealers from the Midwest, the South, and from the West Coast who could take the place of the dealers from the east coast who don't want to make the trip.

there were a few dozen booths awarded to new dealers at this year's lottery. I know because I got the 2nd to last one! If that is any indicator there is more turnover than most people realize

[25801wv]

I would vote Las Vegas!

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 25801wv

I would vote Las Vegas!

+1

[Exhibitman]

I always have a good show in CLE.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I always have a good show in CLE.

I used to, too...until the last one. I could have bought the minuscule pickups I found from home for a lot less time, money and effort.

Cleveland was my last show location where I always fared really well. After that disappointing experience, I reasoned that I was done with the National altogether. No regrets.