1991 Copeland Collection--Any Dollar Totals?

[marzoumanian]

I've been searching the Internet to see if there was ever a total dollar sales amount attached to this incredible collection. Yes, I just checked the Sotheby's website but no luck on a quick scan of it.
I know it is in the millions and realize it was a private sale. I guess I'm a little surprised Sotheby's never put a "total sales dollars" on this. Does anyone know a source OR is this something only the Copeland family and Sotheby's would know and not want to reveal. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks and peace.

[bgar3]

I no longer have them all, but Lew Lipset published all the totals I believe in his old judge newsletter if you can find someone with them. I think I have one issue, but it may not be the one, I will let you know. If I recall he also identified amounts/not sold etc by each lot.

[bgar3]

So, winds up I do have Lipset’s wrap up edition of Old Judge.dated April 1991
According to Lipset, (unofficial), the 4 sessions brought in 4,220,525 before buyer’s premium.approximately 880 lots.
He has a list of each lot with result and even a few of the bidder numbers who won.
If you are interested in a particular price, let me know
Hope this helps, but again, not official.

[marzoumanian]

I appreciate your efforts. No need to provide me with more detail. That total number works great for my purposes. Peace and best of health.

[oldjudge]

Not sure of the total but if that auction took place today the total would surely exceed $50 million.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One wonders how many other cards in the collection had received the same treatment as the Wagner.

[marzoumanian]

It's a fair question to ask in this cynical age we live in, Peter. But if I had to hazard a guess I would say very few, if any other, cards were altered. Having done some research into how Mr. Copeland acquired his mindboggling collection I learned that it was accomplished in relatively few years. He was a very private man and he did not want to deal with all sorts of dealers. If dealers had a collection they thought he would be interested they had to go through Bill Mastro and Greg B. That's my understanding. Copeland made it clear to them that money was no object. He just wrote the checks. Why would you run the risk of destroying the golden goose by tampering with not only cards but all the other sports memorabilia Copeland collected (pins, programs, posters)? Just my two cents.
It is truly amazing to go through the Sotheby's catalog. Worth getting your hands on through Amazon.
I agree with Mr. Oldjudge that if this collection were to go up for auction today it would easily surpass $50 million. But as others have mentioned in this forum, there will always be room for collectors to buy cards that will never make headlines. Yes, I'm aware of rising prices and I have benefitted from what's going on right now. But I enjoy my cards and collecting because they bring back great memories of a wonderful game. And I can touch them. Enough said.

[paul]

So the whole collection sold for about the same price as a Mike Trout rookie ....

[ruth-gehrig]

Here is a thread from 2017 about the Copeland collection that has some interesting info in it
https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=245412

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

It's a fair question to ask in this cynical age we live in, Peter. But if I had to hazard a guess I would say very few, if any other, cards were altered. Having done some research into how Mr. Copeland acquired his mindboggling collection I learned that it was accomplished in relatively few years. He was a very private man and he did not want to deal with all sorts of dealers. If dealers had a collection they thought he would be interested they had to go through Bill Mastro and Greg B. That's my understanding. Copeland made it clear to them that money was no object. He just wrote the checks. Why would you run the risk of destroying the golden goose by tampering with not only cards but all the other sports memorabilia Copeland collected (pins, programs, posters)? Just my two cents.
It is truly amazing to go through the Sotheby's catalog. Worth getting your hands on through Amazon.
I agree with Mr. Oldjudge that if this collection were to go up for auction today it would easily surpass $50 million. But as others have mentioned in this forum, there will always be room for collectors to buy cards that will never make headlines. Yes, I'm aware of rising prices and I have benefitted from what's going on right now. But I enjoy my cards and collecting because they bring back great memories of a wonderful game. And I can touch them. Enough said.

It was a period notorious for card doctoring. If someone thought he could greatly improve his sales price by doctoring a card, and nobody was going to catch him, why not do it? Do you think Bill only altered the Wagner?

[marzoumanian]

I know you're right. Mastro altered more than just the Wagner both before he opened his auction house and during its run.
If there is anything I've learned as I age is that you walk in the gray zone on issues like this.
For the record, I was focusing on his dealings with Copeland (between 1985-1990) when he was busy buying all kinds of collections for Copeland. As I understand it Copeland had an open checkbook. Did Mastro alter/trim items he knew he would be selling directly to Copeland? Only Mastro can answer that. How discerning was Copeland? He just wanted the best currently available.
You would think that if Mastro had altered items he sold to Copeland he would have needed the help of others on at least some items. And it is hard to keep secrets. People talk and SOMEONE would have told Copeland that Mastro is playing around with items he's buying. You would think. But then Copeland was isolated; he didn't attend shows. I could be totally wrong. I guess it comes down to a matter of degree. That is, how many items were altered? Only one man knows all the answers and he's not talking.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by marzoumanian

I know you're right. Mastro altered more than just the Wagner both before he opened his auction house and during its run.
If there is anything I've learned as I age is that you walk in the gray zone on issues like this.
For the record, I was focusing on his dealings with Copeland (between 1985-1990) when he was busy buying all kinds of collections for Copeland. As I understand it Copeland had an open checkbook. Did Mastro alter/trim items he knew he would be selling directly to Copeland? Only Mastro can answer that. How discerning was Copeland? He just wanted the best currently available.
You would think that if Mastro had altered items he sold to Copeland he would have needed the help of others on at least some items. And it is hard to keep secrets. People talk and SOMEONE would have told Copeland that Mastro is playing around with items he's buying. You would think. But then Copeland was isolated; he didn't attend shows. I could be totally wrong. I guess it comes down to a matter of degree. That is, how many items were altered? Only one man knows all the answers and he's not talking.

One of the famous stamp collectors in the early 1900s was very wealthy and bought on a whim, usually paying in gold.
Fakers took enough advantage of Count Ferrary that many particularly good fakes, some of stuff that never existed became known as "ferrarities"

Nobody told him either.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by steve B

One of the famous stamp collectors in the early 1900s was very wealthy and bought on a whim, usually paying in gold.
Fakers took enough advantage of Count Ferrary that many particularly good fakes, some of stuff that never existed became known as "ferrarities"

Nobody told him either.

Cool story. So besides the T206 Wagner I guess there is likely to be other Copelandtrocities out there.

Brian

[bgar3]

I know most of the interest seems to be in the cards, but he had amazing 19th century stuff, some of which passed for failure to meet the minimum bid. At least one lot was misidentified, a cdv identified as Barnes, is not Barnes.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Cool story. So besides the T206 Wagner I guess there is likely to be other Copelandtrocities out there.

Brian

I wouldn't be at all surprised.

I think nearly all great collections have at least a few items that are iffy.
I know mine has a few altered cards, and a couple outright fakes and it's not exactly a "great" collection. hopefully it's only the ones I already know about.