SGC is cranking on recent subs....WOW!!!!!!!

[prestigecollectibles]

SGC refunded my $300 in fees and they are sending them back. I wasted $30 in shipping even though I live 30 minutes from them and could easily drop off and pick up which they stopped allowing that last year.

PSA actually has a consultant for Japanese cards and they never upcharge for doing research.

I sent some UD Tiger Woods golf cards to CSG and were told after they returned them to me that they were a bit oversized and they are waiting for slightly larger holders. I've read the same thing happened to other people as well.

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

So instead of $75 per card they wanted to up to $100 each?

Did they have any response to "send them back and I'll never use again"?

PSA/SGC seem to be completely out of their minds at this point - I'm done with both of them also. At some point they are gonna wish that they would have treated their "longtime" base much better. Unbelievable!

CSG is still currently at $15 per card (economy - 75 days) and $8 (Bulk 50 card min - 80 days)

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

SGC refunded my $300 in fees and they are sending them back. I wasted $30 in shipping even though I live 30 minutes from them and could easily drop off and pick up which they stopped allowing that last year.

PSA actually has a consultant for Japanese cards and they never upcharge for doing research.

I sent some UD Tiger Woods golf cards to CSG and were told after they returned them to me that they were a bit oversized and they are waiting for slightly larger holders. I've read the same thing happened to other people as well.

I always let out a groan when I see a grading company mention a "research fee".

That should be part of expanding your own knowledge base as a grading company. That's what you freakin' do. Authenticate cards.

R&D should be built into the already existing price structure.

As far as CSG, I was cheerleading them at first, but how do you open a business like this, and not have access to anything other then a perfectly sized standard holder.

The way it's going over there, by the time they have holders big enough for Upper Deck Tiger Woods and Ken Griffey Jr. cards, they'll have a year long wait over there to.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

So instead of $75 per card they wanted to up to $100 each?

Did they have any response to "send them back and I'll never use again"?

PSA/SGC seem to be completely out of their minds at this point - I'm done with both of them also. At some point they are gonna wish that they would have treated their "longtime" base much better. Unbelievable!

CSG is still currently at $15 per card (economy - 75 days) and $8 (Bulk 50 card min - 80 days)

I had a similar issue with them earlier. They tried to upcharge me with Silks. I had sent S74 silks in before and it was like any other card I had sent in. Had 5 I sent in on next submission and they wanted $20 additional for each card. Had them sent them back as I was not willing to pay $20 for Mylar. Was also annoying as it took 4 1/2 month to get cards back. Did try them again after the backlog was resolved and had better luck. Then the raised price to $75 so I am out unless something really good comes along that I want slabbed.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

I'm done with SGC. I sent them four Japanese cards to be graded that were already in their database and I had previously graded as well with no issues. They just called trying to extort an upcharge for "research". They did this to a friend of mine as well. This is incredible considering I was the one they used to contact about identifying Japanese cards. I told them to send the cards back and I will never use them again.

Good decision.

[HexsHeroes]

.
Submitted 3/30 @ $25 old price.
SGC posted as received 4/06.
Graded/slabbed.
Return shipped 4/16.
Delivered to me on 4/22.

Interestingly, even though I paid for and shipped my submission on 3/30, the invoice returned with my slabbed card notes rate charged as $90 ($75 rate + $15 shipping) but amount paid = $40 ($25 + $15). Thinking I better check my recent credit card transactions to make sure SGC did not collect on difference based on new pricing.

[steve B]

Pretty easy to clear the list and "crank" on subs when you do no work...

A
A
A
Send away with a bogus upcharge
A
A
A

and so on.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

.
Submitted 3/30 @ $25 old price.
SGC posted as received 4/06.
Graded/slabbed.
Return shipped 4/16.
Delivered to me on 4/22.

Interestingly, even though I paid for and shipped my submission on 3/30, the invoice returned with my slabbed card notes rate charged as $90 ($75 rate + $15 shipping) but amount paid = $40 ($25 + $15). Thinking I better check my recent credit card transactions to make sure SGC did not collect on difference based on new pricing.

I have a sub into them as well, at the old rate, that did the same thing - went to $75 per card. I was told it was a bug on their site and that the rate you paid for at submission was the rate you will be charged.

[Frankish]

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

I'm done with SGC. I sent them four Japanese cards to be graded that were already in their database and I had previously graded as well with no issues. They just called trying to extort an upcharge for "research". They did this to a friend of mine as well. This is incredible considering I was the one they used to contact about identifying Japanese cards. I told them to send the cards back and I will never use them again.

It's still happening, and it seems clear to me that it's a scam at this point. If they have a new policy, not only should it be explicitly stated at submission (not the vague language they have now) but it should register automatically at the time of submission.

For instance, if you try to submit a 1959 Topps baseball card to PSA under a quarterly special for 1960s cards, you are informed that it doesn't qualify when you try to add it to your order. If SGC doesn't grade certain cards at their advertised fees for non-obvious reasons (such as them being oversized for that category), it should come up in the online submission form. This isn't rocket science. It might have been an execution challenge to small company in 1998, but now? High school kids could handle this.

It seems, rather, that SGC management has decided that it's preferable to have customers send in cards and then, when the customers are already pregnant with the costs of having shipped the cards to SGC and having to pay for return shipping, tell them they need to pay an extra $25/card (or whatever) to process the order.

All of this is, of course, setting aside the absurdity for charging "research fees" for cards they already have in their database. And it's particularly galling that they would charge you given that you helped them identify the cards in the first place.

For myself, at this point I guess I'll stick with the devil I know and just wait for PSA to open up other levels of submission. It's a shame. I thought SGC was smart with the general moves it has made to keep their turnaround times reasonable. And if that involved higher fees or limiting the kinds of cards it grades, that makes sense to me. But the hidden fees and/or uncharges are disappointing.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Frankish

It's still happening, and it seems clear to me that it's a scam at this point. If they have a new policy, not only should it be explicitly stated at submission (not the vague language they have now) but it should register automatically at the time of submission.

For instance, if you try to submit a 1959 Topps baseball card to PSA under a quarterly special for 1960s cards, you are informed that it doesn't qualify when you try to add it to your order. If SGC doesn't grade certain cards at their advertised fees for non-obvious reasons (such as them being oversized for that category), it should come up in the online submission form. This isn't rocket science. It might have been an execution challenge to small company in 1998, but now? High school kids could handle this.

It seems, rather, that SGC management has decided that it's preferable to have customers send in cards and then, when the customers are already pregnant with the costs of having shipped the cards to SGC and having to pay for return shipping, tell them they need to pay an extra $25/card (or whatever) to process the order.

All of this is, of course, setting aside the absurdity for charging "research fees" for cards they already have in their database. And it's particularly galling that they would charge you given that you helped them identify the cards in the first place.

For myself, at this point I guess I'll stick with the devil I know and just wait for PSA to open up other levels of submission. It's a shame. I thought SGC was smart with the general moves it has made to keep their turnaround times reasonable. And if that involved higher fees or limiting the kinds of cards it grades, that makes sense to me. But the hidden fees and/or uncharges are disappointing.

That's a pretty strong opinion of SGC as a company. Not saying I disagree with you; however, it would be unfair to post something like this without including your name.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Eric72

That's a pretty strong opinion of SGC as a company. Not saying I disagree with you; however, it would be unfair to post something like this without including your name.

Some members don't read the rule in bold letters at the top of every page. That's ok. We have ways of mandating it.

.

[Frankish]

Originally Posted by Eric72

That's a pretty strong opinion of SGC as a company. Not saying I disagree with you; however, it would be unfair to post something like this without including your name.

Fixed it, Eric. Sorry about that. In the past, I've commented on quite a few companies, including SGC, usually in a positive light, and no one has pointed it out before.

As for my opinion, it's not a very strong one. Maybe I worded my initial post a bit strongly. In retrospect, though, it is only that I am disappointed in SGC, who I had hoped to make my new grader of choice. I'm not personally outraged (years of serving on corporate boards and as a private investor has left me thick-skinned to this type of thing), but (as a fellow collector) I do find their charging Robert a research upcharge after he helped educate them on the cards in the first place a low blow.

In general, these TPG companies don't seem shy about making announcements. It would have been an easy fix (and a few minutes work) to make an announcement that, in order to keep turnaround times low, the company has decided only to grade major, widely collected sets in its main submission pipeline. Other cards can expect additional fees due to more experience personnel needed for grading. This would especially helpful since many long time customers of the company are simply sending in the same cards they have had graded before without any upcharges and are suddenly being called for more money.

That this hasn't been fixed yet suggests to me that either the company is hoping to collect these fees (more likely once the customer has already sent the cards in and faces two-way shipping charges than if the initial bill said $55/card instead of $30 (or whatever)) or that it no longer cares that much for a portion of its traditional customer base and would rather replace them with customers breaking out Justin Herbert parallels. That is not a bad business decision. In fact, depending where the company plans to be in a few years, maybe it is the best one for them. But being transparent about it would be the better solution...in my opinion.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Frankish

Fixed it, Eric. Sorry about that. In the past, I've commented on quite a few companies, including SGC, usually in a positive light, and no one has pointed it out before.

As for my opinion, it's not a very strong one. Maybe I worded my initial post a bit strongly...

No worries, sir. As I said, it wasn't me disagreeing with your statements.

[prestigecollectibles]

This is posted on the SGC site below their grading fees. Although it is quite vague. Does this mean they will upcharge on certain "obscure" W cards, E cards, etc?

[Eric72]

Perhaps it would benefit SGC and their customers to publish a list of "Standard Issue Cards" on their website. At the very least, make it part of the back end of the site - alerting the submitter that "...additional charges may apply."

[Pre War Starter]

I wanted SGC to LABEL my W575-1 Keating Candy Eddie Collins, with “W575-1 Keating Candy”.
But when I asked they told me they do not label back stamps anymore.
So I made the decision to just have them do the normal, “W575-1”.

I KNOW it’s a Keating Candy, so what do I care if it’s not on the label?

[Frankish]

Originally Posted by Pre War Starter

I wanted SGC to LABEL my W575-1 Keating Candy Eddie Collins, with “W575-1 Keating Candy”.
But when I asked they told me they do not label back stamps anymore.

Did you offer them $25?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's hard to believe they can't make enough money without having to upcharge just to do what they are in business to do.

A couple of years back I sent in a bunch of nonsports cards some of which nobody would have any reason to know, but they didn't charge me an extra dime above my whopping 10 dollars per card and indeed I was in touch with the researcher about a couple of questions and they couldn't have been more accomodating. But that was under Matt Clark who is now at REA.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Matt was definitely the best thing going at SGC while he was there.

[conor912]

For anyone keeping track, I sent them two cards, standard service, on May 11 and got them back yesterday. PSA cards might bring more money, but the fact that you can turn around 20ish subs with SGC in the time it takes to get one back from PSA is very much worth considering IMO if you’re a flipper/dealer.

[vthobby]

Just sent 35 card sub via USPS today 5/27/21. Will update accordingly! A Cobb, a W600 that has never been graded by PSA or SGC, all the way up to a Henderson RC! Yay!

Thanks! Mike

PS Cards accepted and credit card charged on 6/2/21!

[vthobby]

SGC really is incredible!

I mailed this batch on May 27th! 35 cards @ $30 per!

I just got the grades today June 7th! Wow! Really incredible in this environment!

That timeframe also included a federal holiday!

Peace, Mike

PS It also included a card that PSA or SGC had NEVER graded before! This unique card was: 1903 Sporting Life Cabinet W600 William HallmanType II 2.5


Results:

1954 Topps #10 Jackie Robinson—2.5
1954 Topps #10 Jackie Robinson—1
1951 Bowman #198 Monte Irvin—3
1971-72 Topps #70 Wilt Chamberlain—5
1971-72 Topps #100 Lew Alcindor—5.5
1972-73 Topps #32 Phil Jackson—6
1981-82 Topps #4 Larry Bird—6
1981-82 Topps #4 Larry Bird—7.5
1980 Topps #482 Rickey Henderson—8.5
1965 Topps #170 Hank Aaron—6.5
1923 W515-1 #3 "Babe" Ruth(Hand Cut) A
1986-87 Topps #53 Patrick Roy—6
1986-87 Topps #53 Patrick Roy—8
1975-76 Topps #254 Moses Malone—9
1989 Upper Deck #1 Ken Griffey Jr.—8
1964 Topps #150 Willie Mays—5
1960 Topps #250 Stan Musial—6.5
1960 Topps #564 Willie MaysAll-Star—7
1960 Topps #566 Hank AaronAll-Star—4
1960 Topps #554 Willie MccoveyAll-Star—6.5
1954 Topps #90 Willie Mays—A
1954 Topps #10 Jackie Robinson—3
1954 Topps #1 Ted Williams—3
1955 Topps #123 "Sandy" Koufax—1.5
1955 Topps #50 Jackie Robinson—2.5
1955 Topps #124 Harmon Killebrew—3
1977-78 Topps #100 Julius Erving—8
1973-74 Topps #80 Wilt Chamberlain—5
1972-73 Topps #100 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar—5
1977-78 Topps #100 Julius Erving—7
1981-82 Topps #4 Larry Bird—4.5
1909 S74 Silks - White TY COBB(Missing Backing)—A
1910 American Beauty Cigarettes T206 Izzy Hoffman—2
1969-70 Topps #60 Willis Reed—4
1903 Sporting Life Cabinet W600 William HallmanType II 2.5

[vthobby]

Got them today!~

IMG_1884.jpg

IMG_1885.jpg

IMG_1886.jpg

IMG_1887.jpg

[Jcosta19]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Got them today!~



Attachment 463436



Attachment 463437



Attachment 463438



Attachment 463439

Great bunch of cards! For your PC or will we see some for sale?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

SGC really is incredible!

I mailed this batch on May 27th! 35 cards @ $30 per!

I just got the grades today June 7th! Wow! Really incredible in this environment!

That timeframe also included a federal holiday!

Peace, Mike

PS It also included a card that PSA or SGC had NEVER graded before! This unique card was: 1903 Sporting Life Cabinet W600 William HallmanType II 2.5


Results:

1954 Topps #10 Jackie Robinson—2.5
1954 Topps #10 Jackie Robinson—1
1951 Bowman #198 Monte Irvin—3
1971-72 Topps #70 Wilt Chamberlain—5
1971-72 Topps #100 Lew Alcindor—5.5
1972-73 Topps #32 Phil Jackson—6
1981-82 Topps #4 Larry Bird—6
1981-82 Topps #4 Larry Bird—7.5
1980 Topps #482 Rickey Henderson—8.5
1965 Topps #170 Hank Aaron—6.5
1923 W515-1 #3 "Babe" Ruth(Hand Cut) A
1986-87 Topps #53 Patrick Roy—6
1986-87 Topps #53 Patrick Roy—8
1975-76 Topps #254 Moses Malone—9
1989 Upper Deck #1 Ken Griffey Jr.—8
1964 Topps #150 Willie Mays—5
1960 Topps #250 Stan Musial—6.5
1960 Topps #564 Willie MaysAll-Star—7
1960 Topps #566 Hank AaronAll-Star—4
1960 Topps #554 Willie MccoveyAll-Star—6.5
1954 Topps #90 Willie Mays—A
1954 Topps #10 Jackie Robinson—3
1954 Topps #1 Ted Williams—3
1955 Topps #123 "Sandy" Koufax—1.5
1955 Topps #50 Jackie Robinson—2.5
1955 Topps #124 Harmon Killebrew—3
1977-78 Topps #100 Julius Erving—8
1973-74 Topps #80 Wilt Chamberlain—5
1972-73 Topps #100 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar—5
1977-78 Topps #100 Julius Erving—7
1981-82 Topps #4 Larry Bird—4.5
1909 S74 Silks - White TY COBB(Missing Backing)—A
1910 American Beauty Cigarettes T206 Izzy Hoffman—2
1969-70 Topps #60 Willis Reed—4
1903 Sporting Life Cabinet W600 William HallmanType II 2.5

Ill gladly take the American Beauty off your hands

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

Great bunch of cards! For your PC or will we see some for sale?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Sorry, just enjoying them now, that goes for you too Wazoo!

Peace, Mike

[vthobby]

Sent a LARGE order today. Almost 20K worth of cards.

Will post turnaround times when they return! Curious to see if the shutdown of PSA and BGS has affected SGC times.

We will see!

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

If there was no SGC would you SGC guys go PSA, Beckett, or CSG?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If there was no SGC would you SGC guys go PSA, Beckett, or CSG?

I don't like any of those choices, and would add "raw" to the list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I don't like any of those choices, and would add "raw" to the list.

Fluid world. Could happen.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fluid world. Could happen.

Yep... nobody is long for this world as long as there are bigger fish in the sea.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yep... nobody is long for this world as long as there are bigger fish in the sea.

Bigger fish with an appetite for smaller fish.

[tnosmoothly]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If there was no SGC would you SGC guys go PSA, Beckett, or CSG?

It would depend on exact card and condition and my timeline, but most likely PSA if there was no need to turn for sale.
I've sent two orders into SGC in the last month with some cheaper modern and some decent vintage and both orders of 10 cards were returned to me in less than 15 days. Kind of remarkable.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bigger fish with an appetite for smaller fish.

I hope you are joking. The implication of that sounds not so great for collectors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I hope you are joking. The implication of that sounds not so great for collectors.

Certainly not for guys who love SGC. I know this board has many.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If there was no SGC would you SGC guys go PSA, Beckett, or CSG?

could be a non-hypothetical here...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

could be a non-hypothetical here...

TPGs are not immune from M and A. Could be.

[Mutton Chop Yaz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If there was no SGC would you SGC guys go PSA, Beckett, or CSG?

I wouldn’t.

But . . . I’ve crossed the ungraded Rubicon. Aside from a Diamond Stars set I’m attempting to assemble in SGC holders (which apparently may not come to fruition), I leave my new cards ungraded or, if acquired graded, crack them out. They’re better that way.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I don't like any of those choices, and would add "raw" to the list.

I understand “raw” means an ungraded card. However, graded or ungraded, we all view our cards through plastic. Even if a card is “raw,” the owner, especially if it is a high dollar card, probably keeps it in a one-touch, card saver, top loader, recessed screw down, binder, etc. and never physically touches the actual card.

Who is handling actual raw cards in their collection? I doubt anyone wants to run the risk of damaging a corner, getting oil from your fingers on it, etc. If I have to view a card through plastic - in some for or another - I’d rather view it through a TPGs plastic. To each their own.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I understand “raw” means an ungraded card. However, graded or ungraded, we all view our cards through plastic. Even if a card is “raw,” the owner, especially if it is a high dollar card, probably keeps it in a one-touch, card saver, top loader, recessed screw down, binder, etc. and never physically touches the actual card.

Who is handling actual raw cards in their collection? I doubt anyone wants to run the risk of damaging a corner, getting oil from your fingers on it, etc. If I have to view a card through plastic - in some for or another - I’d rather view it through a TPGs plastic. To each their own.

I handle the actual cards occasionally on prewar cards.
Postwar, very little of what I have is even in penny sleeves.

[vthobby]

Fedex confirmed that my cards arrived at SGC this morning. SGC confirmed receipt this afternoon.

How novel of a concept. Telling me they got my cards the same day they were delivered!

PSA, Beckett, and the other "wannabees" have alot to learn from SGC. Thank god I've known this the past 20 years!

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Fedex confirmed that my cards arrived at SGC this morning. SGC confirmed receipt this afternoon.

How novel of a concept. Telling me they got my cards the same day they were delivered!

PSA, Beckett, and the other "wannabees" have alot to learn from SGC. Thank god I've known this the past 20 years!

Peace, Mike

So to repeat my question, what would you do if SGC ceased to exist?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So to repeat my question, what would you do if SGC ceased to exist?

LOL. Appears someone is pretending not to read ya. Can't blame him. Ya brought some bad news, if true.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So to repeat my question, what would you do if SGC ceased to exist?

Currently crossing my pre-war to SGC just in case. Once SGC went away I would write an open letter to the remaining TPGs to offer a black apron for pre-war and support my position on why they are missing a great opportunity. Of course they wouldn't listen out of arrogance and ego cuz they're doing such a great job currently.

Then I would contact some heavy hitters in the hobby and come up with a viable business plan for a boutique pre-war only TPG who's mission statement starts with integrity, customer service, and reputation, add a registry, and market to the incredible pre-war community out there. Steal Andy Broome from CSG who clearly is only interested in modern, truly a waste of his talent, and see what happens...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

LOL. Appears someone is pretending not to read ya. Can't blame him. Ya brought some bad news, if true.

I wasn't trying to single him out, but since Mike clearly thinks SGC walks on water just wondering what Plan B would be for him just in case this rumored thing does happen.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wasn't trying to single him out, but since Mike clearly thinks SGC walks on water just wondering what Plan B would be for him just in case this rumored thing does happen.

Rumors. You want my answer based on rumors? Here's a rumor..... They are not going away.

I clearly love SGC. This is true. I have spent alot of money over the years with Beckett, PSA, and SGC because I honestly like the way Beckett sleeves EVERY item and PSA has had its moments. SGC simply rocks and is run by collectors.

This being said..........IF SGC went away which it clearly is NOT..........

I'd probably switch over to PSA but they are not really grading right now so.......

I'd use top loaders! Paint black sharpie around the edges to replicate the tuxedo that I love. Enjoy my gems that way!

Thats it!

I certainly was not dodging the question, just eating~

Peace, Mike

PS This clearly is my best producing post! Almost 25K "hits"! Wowser!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Rumors. You want my answer based on rumors? Here's a rumor..... They are not going away.

I clearly love SGC. This is true. I have spent alot of money over the years with Beckett, PSA, and SGC because I honestly like the way Beckett sleeves EVERY item and PSA has had its moments. SGC simply rocks and is run by collectors.

This being said..........IF SGC went away which it clearly is NOT..........

I'd probably switch over to PSA but they are not really grading right now so.......

I'd use top loaders! Paint black sharpie around the edges to replicate the tuxedo that I love. Enjoy my gems that way!

Thats it!

I certainly was not dodging the question, just eating~

Peace, Mike

PS This clearly is my best producing post! Almost 25K "hits"! Wowser!

There is some interesting news coming out tomorrow I believe. Not SGC. I personally think that transaction will happen sooner or later.

[frankbmd]

Peace, Mike

PS This clearly is my best producing post! Almost 25K "hits"! Wowser![/QUOTE]


Ho Hum. Currently at 701,036 Mike. Let me know when you get to 500K. Yawn!

Peace, Frank

[clydepepper]

I think time will tell if the values approach PSA, but the fees are so much lower, I had to give them a chance. I submitted 22 cards three weeks ago and they are already on the way back to me.

The grades were surprisingly lower than I had hoped, but that gives me faith in their standards.

I hope....


.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Peace, Mike

PS This clearly is my best producing post! Almost 25K "hits"! Wowser!

Ho Hum. Currently at 701,036 Mike. Let me know when you get to 500K. Yawn!

Peace, Frank[/QUOTE]




Yes Frank BUT were you eating dinner while racking up those crazy views? I think not!

Hahahahahha Good to see you still care to even look at my measly 25K post!

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Half those hits were Frank himself I'll bet.