Small Traditions LLC/SCANDAL UPDATE

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Fuck PSA

THIS!!!!

Where's the thumbs up emoji?

[swarmee]

The cover up continues. PSA revoked my website account so I can no longer notify their customers who bought altered cards through the set registry. And there are still people who think PSA is not complicit in the fraud?

[Republicaninmass]

Turnaround times have never been longer even after staffing and building upgrades. Maybe they downsized and didnt tell anyone

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by swarmee

The cover up continues. PSA revoked my website account so I can no longer notify their customers who bought altered cards through the set registry. And there are still people who think PSA is not complicit in the fraud?

John Keep fighting the good fight brother don’t stop .....In my opinion this is what needs to happen.

All this Stuff HAS to be on SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS MEANING ALL THE BASEBALL CARD SPORT CARD RELATED FACEBOOK GROUPS

BUYING SELLING VINTAGE CADS ect
TOBACCO ROW
TOBACCO CARD COLLECTORS
99% PSA
AND MANY OTHERS INCLUDING THE RAZ GAMBLING FACEBOOK GROUPS AND AUCTION GROUPS TO INCLUDE

TWITTER/instagram ect....

Also A booth at every major card show set up next to PSA and other TPG grading offenders exposing with big screens their thousands upon thousands of altered cards in there holders

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

John Keep fighting the good fight brother don’t stop .....In my opinion this is what needs to happen.

All this Stuff HAS to be on SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS MEANING ALL THE BASEBALL CARD SPORT CARD RELATED FACEBOOK GROUPS

BUYING SELLING VINTAGE CADS ect
TOBACCO ROW
TOBACCO CARD COLLECTORS
99% PSA
AND MANY OTHERS INCLUDING THE RAZ GAMBLING FACEBOOK GROUPS AND AUCTION GROUPS TO INCLUDE

TWITTER/instagram ect....

Also A booth at every major card show set up next to PSA and other TPG grading offenders exposing with big screens their thousands upon thousands of altered cards in there holders

I would volunteer my time at such a booth, with continuous loop video showing their thousands of obvious grading atrocities. Might be the best way to actually reach the hoards of people who are still in the dark.

John.... sorry to hear they actually did that to you. Their complicity in this scam is now pretty much a certainty. Just be sure to focus your efforts on other platforms that will reach the greatest number of people. PSA can't squelch this if we don't enable them.

[bswhiten]

Originally Posted by swarmee

The cover up continues. PSA revoked my website account so I can no longer notify their customers who bought altered cards through the set registry. And there are still people who think PSA is not complicit in the fraud?

Sorry to hear that John. Thanks for pointing me to the link that showed one of my Berra matchbooks had been trimmed.

Ben

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by swarmee

The cover up continues. PSA revoked my website account so I can no longer notify their customers who bought altered cards through the set registry. And there are still people who think PSA is not complicit in the fraud?

wow

[Fuddjcal]

PSA is as corrupt a company that there ever was and should be shut down for fraud. The constant censorship and ZERO interest in addressing an fixing their faults is nauseating. Doing nothing but catering to their fake dealer network that helped spread the scam like a Chinese Moronvirus.

Easily a 2 billion dollar fraud after some recalculation. This is the biggest scam in the history of sports cards.

Such a funny joke at the collectors expense. I wouldn't buy a thing from this horsey face dickwad or anything from PSA.

[BeanTown]

intersting PSA job description for graders. Why do they need to have good people skills when they are supposed to be unbiased and just look at cards privately?

[HRBAKER]

That's a pretty basic boilerplate job description and set of skill requirements.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

intersting PSA job description for graders. Why do they need to have good people skills when they are supposed to be unbiased and just look at cards privately?

You HAVE to be able to get along with your coworkers. I think that is what they mean by that.

[Rich Klein]

I agree 100 percent with Bobby. You are probably in reasonably close proximity to other graders and getting along is very important. You don't have to be best friends but you do need to be courteous and nice.

Based on the description, I suspect PSA also wants some collaborative efforts so a grader can tell other graders if they see something they don't like.

Let's not read more into this than we have to. The person who said this is a boilerplate job description is probably dead on.

Rich

[Leon]

The answer is always money. I wasn't a submitter (maybe a few a year) to TPG's anyway. Good luck to those that do.

Originally Posted by perezfan

You can still love the hobby, the cards and memorabilia that make it great.

But you can also hate what they’re doing to it. And is it better to be quietly cheated and defrauded? Or to be vocal, stop submitting, and take other actions that will negatively impact these criminals and corrupt entities that perpetuate this massive scam.

[steve B]

I'd be the one asking when the card flipping contest was and which type it would be.

And probably get fired for skimming a trimmed card across the cube farm

[bluez]

1

[buymycards]

Can you believe that people are still consigning and people are still bidding in his auction? Why isn't he in jail?

Winter Premium Auction Now Open for Bidding
Inbox
x

Small Traditions LLC via icontactmail1.com
6:38 PM (2 hours ago)
to me

Greetings from Small Traditions,

Our Winter Premium Auction is now open for bidding and will run for the next two weeks, closing on Saturday night 2/29 with a lot-by-lot 30-minute rule beginning at 8pm PT (11pm ET).

As always, please don't hesitate to call or write with any questions, corrections, or suggestions.

Thank you for your support, and happy bidding,

Dave Thorn & The STs Team

[perezfan]

It is truly disgusting. Perhaps a combination of 1/3 unmitigated gall, 1/3 arrogance, and 1/3 a sense of invincibility. This clown has been getting away with it for so long (with no ramifications or consequences) that he thinks he's infallible.

A proven card trimmer and fraudster, caught dead to rights. Yet the sheep keep flocking to the well, to be ripped off even further.

[LarsenMN]

I skip right over the slabbed cards. I find I get the best deals by purchasing raw cards. If it has some slightly rounded corners, I know it has not been altered. Plus they are about 5x less for the exact same card minus a crappy slab and "opinionated" grade. Penny sleeves and top loaders are plenty of protection for my ex-ex+ vintage collection.

[LarsenMN]

Also if I find a card has been trimmed, I can contact the buyer and 90% of the time I get refunded. Or I am out a measly $10 or $15.

[Republicaninmass]

People may not be consigning, it is probably his trimmed collection. I had to laugh when I recieved the email about the auction. The audacity of this guy is beyond belief. Faking provenance is about 6 feet below a snakes belly.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

People may not be consigning, it is probably his trimmed collection. I had to laugh when I recieved the email about the auction. The audacity of this guy is beyond belief. Faking provenance is about 6 feet below a snakes belly.

I think he still had some consignments in the pipeline from last year which are in the current auction. When lots get hammered in his auction to sell for much more a month or two later, should make consignors running for a new company to consign with.

One example of a card I follow is this card. Sold for 1955.00 in Small Traditions and then it pops up in PWCC and sells for over 3k

https://smalltraditions.com/LotDetai...entoryid=45306

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1992-Little...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[bluez]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I think he still had some consignments in the pipeline from last year which are in the current auction. When lots get hammered in his auction to sell for much more a month or two later, should make consignors running for a new company to consign with.

One example of a card I follow is this card. Sold for 1955.00 in Small Traditions and then it pops up in PWCC and sells for over 3k

https://smalltraditions.com/LotDetai...entoryid=45306

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1992-Little...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I can't get the kind of money on Ebay that PWCC gets.
Where do you and others suggest as an alternative for vintage and newer?

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by bluez

I can't get the kind of money on Ebay that PWCC gets.
Where do you and others suggest as an alternative for vintage and newer?

For vintage any on this list I would trust. Not in any order:

1. BST on Net54 (Free and many collectors see it)
2. Sterling Auctions (Anything really)
3. Heritage (Higher dollar items)
4. Hunt (Post Cards/memorabilia)
5. Huggins & Scott (newer stuff including minor league)
6. Brockleman Auctions (Especially booklets/papers/magazines)
7. LOTG (Type cards/postcards/photos)
8. REA (higher dollar items especially 19th century)
9. Clean Sweep (prewar items including obscure)
9. eBay seller that comes recommended from here. More fees involved in this option.

If you consign, ask to have sellers fee waved and make sure you know what they are charging the buyer for fees. Plus make sure you like the way the auction closes. If some/all your items need grading, then negotiate the grading cost upfront.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bluez

I can't get the kind of money on Ebay that PWCC gets.
Where do you and others suggest as an alternative for vintage and newer?

Before I bought Birmingham Auctioneers I consigned several items with PWCC on which I thought he would outperform my ebay account. Oddly enough with no shill bidding they went for very pedestrian prices and significantly less than identical items in the same sale. If I recall the items were 1965 Mantle PSA 8, 1967 Tom Seaver PSA 7, 1986 Fleer Jordan PSA 8 and 1979 Topps Gretzky PSA 8.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

For vintage any on this list I would trust. Not in any order:

1. BST on Net54 (Free and many collectors see it)
2. Sterling Auctions (Anything really)
3. Heritage (Higher dollar items)
4. Hunt (Post Cards/memorabilia)
5. Huggins & Scott (newer stuff including minor league)
6. Brockleman Auctions (Especially booklets/papers/magazines)
7. LOTG (Type cards/postcards/photos)
8. REA (higher dollar items especially 19th century)
9. Clean Sweep (prewar items including obscure)
9. eBay seller that comes recommended from here. More fees involved in this option.

Trying not to cry...

[buymycards]

In the past few years, I have sent two lots to PWCC. I would say that roughly 1/3 of the items sold for well above my expectations, 1/3 sold at for what I expected, and 1/3 sold for under what I felt I could have sold them for myself. I think that PWCC's perceived sold prices are specific to certain items, and the high prices don't carry through on all items. The same applies to PSA cards. Some prices are higher, especially on modern cards, but for lower end vintage, SGC seems to prevail.

The advantage is that PWCC's consignment rates were under what I would have paid eBay and PayPal if I had listed them myself, plus, I didn't have to scan, list, or ship.

I am not going to consign to PWCC again because of the integrity problems that they seem to be having. It has been 20 years since I submitted to PSA, but I do send small orders to SGC once or twice a year. I have 8 PSA cards in my collection and I am thinking about breaking them out of the PSA slabs and either keeping them raw or sending them to SGC.

I would mostly agree with Jay Cee's list, although some of the companies on the list are having their own problems with passing along trimmed cards, or they have problems with shipping charges, etc.

I would also add Birmingham Auctions to the list of good guys.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

LOL, thanks Rick.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

For vintage any on this list I would trust. Not in any order:

4. Hunt (Post Cards/memorabilia)
.

I know this is off subject, but I disagree with this.

I bought a memorabilia piece from them that they specified as a specific piece. After receiving it I tried my own research more and couldn't confirm anything from the item description. When I contacted HUNT's with the conflicting information they told me essentially "that is what our consignor told us". So they took the work of the consignor with out any bit of research and fully relied on that info. When I asked if they could provide more providence, they told me the consignor didn't have anything to provide. I haven't bid with Hunt since. The item was so cheap that I let it go, but they lost my trust.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Before I bought Birmingham Auctioneers I consigned several items with PWCC on which I thought he would outperform my ebay account. Oddly enough with no shill bidding they went for very pedestrian prices and significantly less than identical items in the same sale. If I recall the items were 1965 Mantle PSA 8, 1967 Tom Seaver PSA 7, 1986 Fleer Jordan PSA 8 and 1979 Topps Gretzky PSA 8.

You probably should have lobbied harder for their "High End" Stickers!

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I know this is off subject, but I disagree with this.

I bought a memorabilia piece from them that they specified as a specific piece. After receiving it I tried my own research more and couldn't confirm anything from the item description. When I contacted HUNT's with the conflicting information they told me essentially "that is what our consignor told us". So they took the work of the consignor with out any bit of research and fully relied on that info. When I asked if they could provide more providence, they told me the consignor didn't have anything to provide. I haven't bid with Hunt since. The item was so cheap that I let it go, but they lost my trust.

I wïll say that Hunt is not for the faint of Heart. If you are able to figure out their website and even login, then let the search begin. I believe Hunt's business plan is to use minimal descriptions, regular scans, and group up items in the lot. Its like walking into a huge online flea market where you can find gems all the way down to duds.

They seem to always have a ton of stuff and the starting out bids are low. Their signiture or Platinum auctions are better than their monthly ones on all levels. They been around for years and most buyers know of them. Agreed they should not have used a "consignors word" on a description unless noted.

Still, they move a lot of items and from almost any decade you want to collect.

Im sure I left many AHs out of my list as I was just firing them out, as I was thinking of them. Ive never delt with Birmingham auctions, so I didn't List them... Nothing personal.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Im sure I left many AHs out of my list as I was just firing them out, as I was thinking of them. Ive never delt with Birmingham auctions, so I didn't List them... Nothing personal.

I know, just had to throw my hat in. Of course now I'm hurt that you've never bought from me...

[mybestbretts]

I first want to say I am not a dealer, I am a collector. I have bought many
times from Small Traditions auctions as well as other auctions and have had many cards graded by PSA.
I happen to have a number of postcards that have been graded by PSA and
of course, I could never get a 10, only the dealers it seemed to me. Recently
Traditions had a 74/75, not sure which PSA 10 George Brett postcard up
for sale, which took my 9 down in value, and in fact maybe 2. Now I read
that they might have been trimmed. This is so funny because you won't
believe how many cards I have received back from PSA with "evidence of
trimming" when I bought them in the pack and never from a dealer so
I knew they weren't trimmed. I recently battled with them over a Jetter
they said was trimmed, which I had broken out of the pack years back.
They finally slabbed it and graded it "authentic". I heard later that that
whole group of cards might have all been smaller then PSA standards,
but Small Traditions had a PSA 10.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by buymycards

In the past few years, I have sent two lots to PWCC. I would say that roughly 1/3 of the items sold for well above my expectations, 1/3 sold at for what I expected, and 1/3 sold for under what I felt I could have sold them for myself. I think that PWCC's perceived sold prices are specific to certain items, and the high prices don't carry through on all items...

This makes sense. I know in the past when I bid or buy, I have to check the shipping. Regardless of this controversy, PWCC (and Probstein, and sometimes COMC) have outrageous shipping charges.
For a high end item I will pay $50-$100 to ship. For a $25 item, I'm not even bidding when shipping is $25-$35. This may be one reason some cards may get the eyeballs, but not the bids.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

and it replaces the "no buyer's premium" as a revenue stream.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to a post today on Blowout, the Small Traditions website is permanently gone.

Anyone who didn't follow all the outed cards on Blowout, here's a link. Some stunners here.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1345291

[Snowman]

I wonder if he's actually in legal trouble or if he simply failed to succeed in running his own auction site. I'm guessing it's the latter since his eBay store is still fairly active with recent sales.

[samosa4u]

I don't think he took his website down because of what BODA did. He can make more money selling his cards through other auction sites.

[Yoda]

I feel pretty confident that when PWCC launches its' new platform, we will see an avalanche of PSA graded cards on offer and undoubtedly some will have been messed with. But if you offer them, they will come.
As big as Ebay is, I am sure they miss the revenue PWCC provided, and it obvious that vintage, maybe outside of Probstein, has dried up on Ebay. The simplest solution, of course, is to stop buying any PSA graded cards and move to SGC or Beckett. That is wishful thinking.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I don't think he took his website down because of what BODA did. He can make more money selling his cards through other auction sites.

Funny how he ran his site and his own auctions for many years and didn't discover that. I think you're totally wrong here my friend.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I feel pretty confident that when PWCC launches its' new platform, we will see an avalanche of PSA graded cards on offer and undoubtedly some will have been messed with. But if you offer them, they will come.
As big as Ebay is, I am sure they miss the revenue PWCC provided, and it obvious that vintage, maybe outside of Probstein, has dried up on Ebay. The simplest solution, of course, is to stop buying any PSA graded cards and move to SGC or Beckett. That is wishful thinking.

What makes you think SGC or Beckett are any better at stopping altered cards?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I don't think he took his website down because of what BODA did. He can make more money selling his cards through other auction sites.

Well he absolutely stopped running auctions specifically because of being outed by BODA. I am not IT dude but the server error that displays I think suggests it was more than an expired domain but that the data from the site has been wiped out.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What makes you think SGC or Beckett are any better at stopping altered cards?

It's more fun to join the psa bashing band wagon

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Yoda

As big as Ebay is, I am sure they miss the revenue PWCC provided

Makes one think it was a big (legal?) issue for eBay to kick PWCC off.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I am not IT dude but the server error that displays I think suggests it was more than an expired domain but that the data from the site has been wiped out.

It's not an expired domain. It means that he probably still owns the domain but that his server is corrupt for some reason. Could be he just needs to upgrade it. Could be that the server got hacked. Who knows. But he hasn't ran any auctions for what, a year and a half now? Is that right? He probably just doesn't have time or doesn't care to fix the server issues, whatever they are.

Though plausible, I highly doubt this is some new development in the FBI's ferocious pursuit of card trimmers.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Well he absolutely stopped running auctions specifically because of being outed by BODA.

How successful was this auction site before that though? Was he a real player in this space? I'd never even heard of them before BODA posted about it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by drcy

Makes one think it was a big (legal?) issue for eBay to kick PWCC off.

Or that eBay got wind of the fact that there were plans in the works at PWCC to leave eBay completely and set up their own auction platform, so eBay retaliated in classic eBay fashion. Who knows why they actually did it, but to cut ties so publicly in the way that they did sure makes one wonder.

One thing is certain though. The premise of the email was clearly bullshit. eBay has never given two shits about shill bidding in the past. This was most likely about something other than cracking down on shill bidding. Perhaps the FBI was breathing down their neck and the legal team felt they had to make a drastic move to cover their asses. Or perhaps they wanted to damage the brand of a soon-to-be competitor who was already on their way out the door. I think those are the two most plausible scenarios. Time will tell. If it is cracking down on shill bidding though, surely that will become apparent via further actions against shill bidding. And if it's the FBI breathing down their neck, that will become apparent once all these indictments start rolling in (any day now... any day now...). But if neither of those things happens, then the scale begins to tip quite heavily toward them just trying to damage the brand of a competitor. Stay tuned, IMO.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

How successful was this auction site before that though? Was he a real player in this space? I'd never even heard of them before BODA posted about it.

If the site did not somehow mysteriously vanish you could see his prices realized and could see he was raking it in. He sold odd ball stuff and got more than every last penny for what he sold.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If the site did not somehow mysteriously vanish you could see his prices realized and could see he was raking it in. He sold odd ball stuff and got more than every last penny for what he sold.

Not to mention you can make a lot of money buying cards in one grade and selling them in another.

[packs]

This notion that PWCC was or is a threat to eBay's business is absurd. eBay does not only sell sports memorabilia and the sports memorabilia it does sell makes up a fraction of it's entire revenue. There is no competing with eBay. It's like saying Yahoo is competing with Google. They both exist, but they're not in competition with each other.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

This notion that PWCC was or is a threat to eBay's business is absurd. eBay does not only sell sports memorabilia and the sports memorabilia it does sell makes up a fraction of it's entire revenue. There is no competing with eBay. It's like saying Yahoo is competing with Google. They both exist, but they're not in competition with each other.

I think I posted somewhere that eBay's annual revenues are something like 10 BILLION dollars. There surely is a backstory here, though what it is we don't know, yet anyhow.